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Post Info TOPIC: Setting RPM Limiters on 32bit ECUs ('02 - '07)


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Setting RPM Limiters on 32bit ECUs ('02 - '07)




The Enginuity/RomRaider definition file disscussed in this thread can be found here.

The 32bit busa limits are very much like the 16bit limits. They share all the same values. The major difference is that the Fuel and Ignition limits are handled seperately in the 32bit. Here is a list of the available Limiter settings available in the current definition 1.00

32bdef001.jpg


Fuel Limit Soft Cut.

32bdef002.jpg

The stock map uses a soft / hard fuel cut limiter. By clearing the check box you can disable the soft/hard mode and the ECU will use a hard limit only limiter. The soft limit is not recommended for bikes set up with Turbo or NOS.


RPM Fuel Soft/Hard (Type 1)

32bdef003.jpg

If the Fuel Limit Soft Cut is Enabled in the previous image then the above limits are the limits used for the fuel. When changing these limits it is very important to remember that the values must always be:

SoftLo < SoftHi < HardLo < HardHi

RPM Fuel Hard (Type 2)

32bdef004.jpg

When Fuel Limit Soft Cut is Enabled (stock) the above limits are ignored. When soft cut is disable then these hard cut only limiter values become the active limit and the soft/hard values are ignored.

RPM Fuel Hard Neutral (Type 3)

32bdef005.jpg

When ever the bike is in neutral (or clutch pulled in?) this hard cut fuel limit overrides which ever of the other limits is active (soft/hard or hard only)

Fuel Limit by Gear

32bdef006.jpg

In addition to the regular fuel limits it is possible to set a different fuel limit for each gear between 3rd and 6th. These limits are set in the stock map above the regular limits and are never used except for the 6th gear soft cut limit which is used to restrict the top speed of the bike in 6th gear to 186 mph / 300kmH.

To disable the Limits-by-gear clear the check box.

Fuel Limit by Gear Soft Cut

32bdef007.jpg

Like the regular limiters the limits by gear can be configured to use a soft/hard (stock) or hard only fuel limit. When the box is checked the ECU uses the gear limits in the soft/hard table. When the box is cleared the ECU uses the hard only gear limits.

RPM Fuel Limit by Gear Soft Cut

32bdef008.jpg

These limits are used by the ECU when Limits by Gear and Limits by Gear soft cut are both enabled. The 6th gear soft limits are the top speed 186mph restriction limit. If you set the regular limiters above these values then the values become the defacto limits. I would recommend Disabling limits by gear all together then you won't have to worry about these values or the top speed.

If you do use this map remember that like the regular soft/hard the values must be set such that:

SoftLo < SoftHi < HardLo < HardHi.


RPM Fuel Limit by Gear Hard Cut

32bdef011.jpg

These limits are in effect when Limits by Gear is enabled and Limits by Gear Soft Cut is Disabled. This table allows you to set a Fuel Hard Cut Only by Gear. When changing values make sure to always set HardLo < HardHi.


RPM Ignition Limits

32bdef009.jpg

The Normal Limits disable the coils during normal operation. The Neu_Lo / Neu_Hi are the coil limits used when the bike is neutral or the clutch is pulled in. The Norm pair values can be above or below the Neutral pair as long as within the either pair Lo < Hi.

RPM Ignition Limit by Gear.

32bdef010.jpg

These Ignition Limits probably override the Normal ignition limits in the stock map as they are at a lower value. This is something that needs to be verified by testing. If your going to be setting your fuel limits at or above 11,600 I would change both the Ignition Limits and these Ignition by gear limits.





-- Edited by RidgeRacer at 17:58, 2008-04-09

-- Edited by RidgeRacer at 00:32, 2008-11-29

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NICE WRITE UP RR.......



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rr i was setting up the limiters today, i wanted to set the clutch/neutral limiter (3) lower than the the fuel hard limiter (2) but when ever i set the clutch/neutral limiter (3) it changes the fuel hard limiter (2) as well.....they seems to be tied togeather...



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It appears when I copied and pasted the type 2 definition to create the type 3 I changed all the labels etc. but forgot the most important thing, the map address. The values changed together because both tables were pointing to the same map data.

I fixed it and posted an updated definition in the 32 bit map thread.

Sorry for the inconvenience.

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THANK YOU...

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32bdef004.jpg

32bdef005.jpg
HEY RR HAVE YOU VARIFIED THESE TWO LIMITERS? THE FUEL HARD (TYPE 2) SEEMS TO POINT TO NEUTRAL LIMITER.
AND FUEL HARD (TYPE 3) SEEMS TO POINT TO CLUTCH LIMITERS...
PER THIS POST.........http://www.activeboard.com/forum.spark?forumID=99460&p=3&topicID=15260968
I'M NOT SURE JUST ASKING...idea


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I have no actual first hand verification of these values. But I do know what the code says and I think PetriK misread it.

It is very clear that the limiter use one of three possible sets of limit values. Type1 is obviously the soft then hard set. Type 2 and Type 3 are both hard only setting the same limit flag and differ only in which limit values they use.

So the question is what decides the type. The routine that sets the type sets type 3 if a ram value is less than 44 or more than 248, or depending on PortH bit0. The ram value is most likely the gear position voltage and neutral is less than 1st gear or greater than 6th. PortH is the clutch switch input. Type 3 also has the lowest values 10,500 / 10,600 It's an educated guess but I would say type 3 is neutral.

If the conditions for type 3 are not met then it is type 1 or 2 depending on a map value meaning it is ALWAYS type 1 or 2. We know the stock map is set for soft limits and the map value causes type 1 to be chosen when ever type 3 is not. In a stock bike type 2 is never used. It can't be neutral. Type 1 is a soft cut, the stock bike is soft cut, the map value says type 1 always if not type 3. Type 1 has to be normal limit and by process of elimination type 3 has to be neutral / clutch in.

BTW the above images show the wrong values for neutral. With the updated definition they are 10,500 / 10,600

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ok RR thanks for clearing that up. and please excuse the rookie questions all this stuff is new to me.

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No problem, keep the questions coming. If it wasn't for your questions I wouldn't have realized I screwed up the netural definition.

Let us know how your testing works out.

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ok RR just tested the neutral/clutch limiter and it works just as you describe above...biggrin

-- Edited by busa2001 at 23:18, 2008-04-13

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RidgeRacer wrote:

I have no actual first hand verification of these values. But I do know what the code says and I think PetriK misread it.


Please specify more in detail, may have some later stuff on the laptop - I stopped updating the .idc and .xml .... and did not include certain limiters there because of noticing that some commercial products utilized the information on this board without first contacting either of us. This was to make them to put some effort into figuring out some of the stuff by themselves smile.gif


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any updates RR? biggrin

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Were you looking for something more in the rev limits or you talking in general such as fuel tables etc?

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i'm happy with the rev limiters, more like fuel maps, idle map and such.... 

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hi everyone,I was wanting to use the netural/clutch limits to act like a launch limiter,does anyone have any idea if the coils are cut completly or random?

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stocker wrote:

hi everyone,I was wanting to use the netural/clutch limits to act like a launch limiter,does anyone have any idea if the coils are cut completly or random?



i assume you are talking about the clutch/neutral ignition limiter since you are asking about the coils, for hard limit i believe they are cut at the same time...i have not check this i did however check the clutch/neutral fuel hard limiter and they did cut at the same time... 



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thanks d thats what i was fearing,i was hopeing to use it as a launch limiter.

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Touching the question - I am planning to have a very different ignition map for clutch to be able to have a power surge when clutch is pressed. Which allows me to change gear without pressing clutch more than what is needed to activate the switch.

I.e. when clutch switch recognizes that clutch is depressed then ignition going down by 10 degrees will decrease power and then that will decrease power allowing a clutchless gear change. My feet will be pushing the gear with preload allowing to throw in the next gear to be throwed in as soon as the decreased power allows that.

You can also have secondary fuel maps hooked to the clutch switch also generating an "rpm limiter" for launch.

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After yesterdays race and analyzing datalogs I noticed somehting interesting that may relate to the limiters or running out of the fuel. The limiters are set to around 11500rpm, but I am starting to lean out already at 11200rpm with full and even partial throttle.

I felt at the end of the run the engine bogging stronly just before the shift point, very strongly at end of the second gear. I thought that I have a problem with transmission and ordered a new transmission  - anyhow, now when analyzing datalogs (Innovate LC1 & DL32 from DaveO) I noticed that towards end of the each gear my engine is getting very lean. This did not happen in dyno on 5th gear - on the dyno the AFR was a straight line...but its possible that dyno do not react as fast as the Innovete DL-32.

Now I am slowly coming to think that maybe there is more to the rpm and gear specific limiters than what is said above. At certain point I updated the ecueditor software based on the info above, particularly the clutch limiter without proper testing assuming this is correct even though different than what I had previously read from the code and tested.

So the conclusion is: Either there is something unknown with the RPM limiters particularly the hard "clutch limiter" or alternatively I am just simply outrunning the injectors. To my knowledge I should not yet be on the limit with injectors particularly with partial throttle positions so therefore more testing of the RPM limiters is needed.

If RR or someone with proper signal generator could test the 11000 - 11500 rpm area could verify what happens with the bin below I would appreciate with particular attention to the injector and ignition signals. The exhaust temp is not changing, EGT its measured on the outer cylinder - so if something happens its the middle cylinders that are affected. My signal generator is a bit "dodgy" during the last few hundred RPM:s as its a pic based simple device so I am not really able to test that rpm range without a new signal generator.

This happened on almost every run when exceeding 11200rpm ... and obviously I have checked that the calibration of the RPM on ecueditor is same as RPM on Innovate DL32. If I run against the hard limiter that happens around 11480rpm - that is where the rpm stops with gear on. (And I do not use clutch when shifting)

Here is the .bin I used:
http://macmadigan.no-ip.com/Public/ECU/ecueditor/PETRIK220HP_v1.63.bin

And here is the datalog for full throttle:
drag_veto_leanend.jpg

Here is a datalog of a part throttle indicating the same:
drag_veto_leanend_part_throttle.JPG

-- Edited by PetriK at 12:09, 2008-06-08

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Petrik make sure your clutch switch didn't go bad. try to start the bike (in neutral) without pulling in the clutch.  

-- Edited by busa2001 at 20:04, 2008-06-08

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Sorry I can't help you on bench testing your bin. Either my simulator doesn't work with the 32bit busa or the donated ECU I have is too broken to function.

For signal generation there is wave function generator software out there that uses a Personal Computer sound card. You can design a custom wave form and can then change the frequency and amplitude when you output it. You use one channel for crank and one for cam. I believe this is what Don does on his ZX-6 test rig and they rev well above 14k.

If I understand what your saying correctly you think maybe the clutch limiter is active even when the clutch is not 'in'. The quickest way to test this would be to set that limit down to 9 or 10k and do a run. Also the clutch limit takes effect if the bike is in neutral as well as clutch in. Neutral is considered a voltage below 1st gear (0.85V)

You mention 2nd gear, does it do this in all the gears?

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Yes - happening on all gears almost every gear change. Not seen in dyno when tuning the bike using the dynos own wbo.

During past 8 hours:
- Have tested clutch switch bike not starting without that being depressed - looking good.
- Have tested reflashing/clutch limiters with lower settins, seems to be good.
- Have tested the reflashing/changing the ignition map x-axis values, no effect
(- the ecu harness connector clutch switch signal still to be tested, only visual inspection done.)

But then during past hour investigated the Innovate logfile a bit more in detail. First impression is that its possible that there is a timeshift between devices logged. Need to investigate further and ask from innovate. Sorry this alert if it is innovate timing issue.

On the log file I can see:
- Acceleration starting before opening throtte
- Speed going up before opening throttle
- RPM going up with a clutchless shift while TPS going down. All normal gear changes are clutchless.

Here is a link to the log file if you (busa2001) have logworks installed to verify what I am saying...
http://macmadigan.no-ip.com/Public/innovate/06060800.D32


-- Edited by PetriK at 20:18, 2008-06-08

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It is possible that you may be expecting too much from your injectors. Most of the injector sizing calculators do not take into account the rpm that we will be running. If you are running your injectors over 80% duty cycle, you can experience a high rev lean out condition. What injectors are you running?
The other thing to consider is that your fuel system may not be up to the task of supplying your new engine. As the engine revs higher, the fuel demand increases. If the fuel system can't keep up, the pressure drops and leans out the mixture. If the dyno runs happen faster than the actual run, you may not see either of these conditions on the dyno.
Does youe data acquisition system record injector duty cycle and fuel pressure? This information can sure come in handy when troubleshooting these types of problems.
Let me know if you need any additional information.
I'd run a simulation, but I don't have any Busa ECUs or harnesses.
Let me know if you need any information on the sound generator software for driving the crank and cam signals.
Keep us posted.

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Thanks Don, I doubt this is an injetor issue - it happens with partial throttle too at same RPM - on the log file found only one instance without it.

The Innovate sensor timeshift issue is my primary root cause scenario, anyhow you made me think something else. It may be possible that when preloading the gear selector just prior to gear change (like we all do if clutchless shifting) its possible that the gear voltage value to ecu is neutral. Need to check that operation somehow. This would explain yet another reason why some turbos have failed so easily... on the other hand if that is the case then making an ignition kill for clutchless gear shifting suddenly becomes fairly easy to implement with ECU settings.

This is slightly OT from the RPM Limiters topic, but hopefully educational - if RR can transfer parts of this conversation under other topic I dont mind.


-- Edited by PetriK at 20:51, 2008-06-08

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Thanks to you guys I got another perspective on this matter.

After looking at the datalog again, a likely scenario is also that preloading the gear lever may cause ecu to detect neutral. Testing follows - its almost midnight here so that must wait to another day.

Dont really know how to test this scenario on the street or in garage ? 

EDIT - I recall vaguely seeing the gear indicator (GIPRO & AIM gauges) going to neutral when switching gear.

(Btw. kaybe kawis operate similarly ?)


gearhift.JPGgearshift.JPG

EDIT 2 - having now seen the GPS switch stucture and remembering how the gear selector is built, its very likely that while preloading gps shows no voltage (neutral) - need to test this !

img291064517332a3e149.JPG


-- Edited by PetriK at 21:50, 2008-06-08

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Petrik the ECU defaults to six gear if the gps send faulty signals or no signal..

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I thought that GPS sensor is a pull down resistor/voltage divider which means that no pull down if not connected (i.e. between contacts) ?

1st 1.8V
2nd 2.4V
3rdn 3.1V
4th 3.7V
5th 4.4V
6th 4.8V

Neutral + 5.0V

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PetriK wrote:

I thought that GPS sensor is a pull down resistor/voltage divider which means that no pull down if not connected (i.e. between contacts) ?

1st 1.8V
2nd 2.4V
3rdn 3.1V
4th 3.7V
5th 4.4V
6th 4.8V

Neutral + 5.0V




Petrik i have no first hand experience, i read that it defaults to six in a mag. that was testing the top speed limiter. so you might be right in your assumption, with the ecu reading Neutral when shifter is preloaded. 



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PetriK wrote:

Thanks to you guys I got another perspective on this matter.

After looking at the datalog again, a likely scenario is also that preloading the gear lever may cause ecu to detect neutral. Testing follows - its almost midnight here so that must wait to another day.

Dont really know how to test this scenario on the street or in garage ? 

EDIT - I recall vaguely seeing the gear indicator (GIPRO & AIM gauges) going to neutral when switching gear.

(Btw. kaybe kawis operate similarly ?)


gearhift.JPGgearshift.JPG

EDIT 2 - having now seen the GPS switch stucture and remembering how the gear selector is built, its very likely that while preloading gps shows no voltage (neutral) - need to test this !

img291064517332a3e149.JPG


-- Edited by PetriK at 21:50, 2008-06-08




it's a possibility, ok now get the mulitmeter and report back....biggrin 



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Petrik your NEUTRAL IGNITION LIMIT is set at 11000 LO   11200 HI
      your NEUTRAL FUEL HARD LIMIT is set at 11200 LO   11300 HI
your ignition is cutting out at 11200 rpm and back on at 11000 in neutral or with the clutch pull in....i don't think it's your problem but you need to increase the CLUTCH/NEUTRAL IGNITION LIMIT above the CLUTCH/NEUTRAL FUEL HARD LIMITER. 



-- Edited by busa2001 at 23:03, 2008-06-08

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Or alternatively I just may need to bring the neutral limiters down to 7000rpm and just push the gear in without a clutch when doing high rpm shifts. As if the preload activates the limiter and the limiter makes engine to generate less power then the gear will be changed wihtout blipping the throttle smile.gif)

This could work particularly with a undercut gears which will be engaged onand the power will be after engagement be instant.

Time to test tomorrow or some other day (looks like its raining for coming 3 days over here...).


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Tested - no obvious reason found. Will continue here about the limiter/engine leaning out issue:

http://www.activeboard.com/forum.spark?forumID=99460&p=3&topicID=18097864

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Okay I re-read everything about after race day. I thing busa2001 found it, "hard bog right at shift point" and then your hard rev limit set right at shift point also. Try changing the rev limits to 12,000 and still shift at the same point. That should stop the bogging.

I am new to learning about the process, but have you examined your fuel maps to make sure that the higher RPM setting has a corresponding map increase..IE more rows? Secondly, have you made any adjustment to the VE maps to add rows for the increase rpm's? There must be some signal greater than just rpm to give the need for more fuel.



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I would not go above 11500rpm without extensive testing. That is because some of the maps have the highest value @ 11500. Exceeding that value is untested territory.

Ra, but you lost me there with VE maps - those go up to 12800rpm as stock ? All the maps go minimum to 11500rpm. This does not require map extensions like some old cars - or have I missed something ?

Lets continue this discussion here:
http://www.activeboard.com/forum.spark?forumID=99460&p=3&topicID=18097864


-- Edited by PetriK at 08:22, 2008-06-11

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any update Petrik did you figure out what was causing it? maxed out injectors? 

-- Edited by busa2001 at 00:52, 2008-06-21

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busa2001 wrote:

any update Petrik did you figure out what was causing it? maxed out injectors? 

-- Edited by busa2001 at 00:52, 2008-06-21



Yep - according to the datalogs maxed the injectors which is explained in that other thread. If RR wants to cleant this thread I dont mind removing unnecessary items.



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RidgeRacer wrote:

Were you looking for something more in the rev limits or you talking in general such as fuel tables etc?



hey RR could you look into the flapper valve upper and lower rpm limit, it does not work with any off the definition files here. i did however get it to work by using Petrik ECU EDITOR. but would like to edit it using enginuity as well. 


-- Edited by busa2001 at 03:38, 2008-07-01

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PetriK wrote:

busa2001 wrote:

any update Petrik did you figure out what was causing it? maxed out injectors? 

-- Edited by busa2001 at 00:52, 2008-06-21



Yep - according to the datalogs maxed the injectors which is explained in that other thread. If RR wants to cleant this thread I dont mind removing unnecessary items.



so did the s-2000 fix the problem. did you just change injector size or did it requires retuning? 



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Yes s2000 fixed the problem for my all motor 220hp engine. But with standard pressure I still need more fuel for nitrous with the jet 34-36 which I am using.

When changing to s2000 it was a major map tuning effort. You have the maps avail on sh.org and can see yourself the difference.

Earlier when I upped the pressure the need for tuning was not so dramatic.

Now have ordered a new fuelpump (Walbro 255) - after increasing the pressure just a bit I hope my problems are then gone. But I see this as a positive problem, the engine is capable of delivering more power than I initially thought of.

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I'm just starting to mess with the software as I haven't completed the interface yet but I'm really impressed with what I have seen.  I am glad I started reading up on this this week as I was just planning to purchase the MSD SB6.

Does the Clutch / Neutral Limiter allow you to use it like a launch limiter or would that cause problems while shifting in later gears?  I guess you could just implement that on the 2nd set of maps and you wouldn't have any problem using the speed shift or air shifter.

Thanks,
Conrad

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Not really - we tried lowering the RPM for launch control but did not work properly for launch control.

One of the ideas is to write a plugin module for launch control. Its doable and the basic algorithm is already discussed on our "domestic" forum, but today its only an idea. For me its very tempting personally to implement it.

Well year ago the whole hacking of 32bit ecu was also an idea so lets see what the winter brings to us.

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rpm by gear

If I make a change to this table then save the file, when I reopen it, it shows the same values again.  Any suggestions on why these fields cant be changed?

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ataylor wrote:

rpm by gear

If I make a change to this table then save the file, when I reopen it, it shows the same values again.  Any suggestions on why these fields cant be changed?



WHEN EVER I SEE THIS HAPPEN IN ROMRAIDER THERE IS A SECOND LOCATION WITH THE SAME ADDRESS, AND BOTH HAS TO BE CHANGE FOR IT TO WORK, THE PROBLEM IS THE DEFINITION. I HAVE ALSO SEEN THIS ON MY VISTA LAPTOP WHERE THE CHANGE DID NOT TAKE EVEN THOUGH THE DEFINITION WAS GOOD, AND I HAVE TO DO THE EDITING ON MY XP LAPTOP...smile

 



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I am using the 1.20 Definition from this site. I am in Windows 7 though so I will try it in XP.

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LET ME KNOW IF THAT DID IT...smile

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nope, still the same using XP any changes made to the table dont save.

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I just downloaded VER. 1.20 and it's working fine. now i'm not sure why it's not working for you, have you try deleting it then resaving it. but if you use different laptops that would eliminate that being a currupted file.  

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change the user level, if using romraider...to highest...confuse

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stocker wrote:

change the user level, if using romraider...to highest...confuse




That did it! thanks

Now do you know if I change the RPM limits in romraider, can I then do fuel/timing in ecueditor?  I know that it use to lock the bin but it seems in ver. 2.x that is not the case.



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IT'S OK WITH THE LATEST VERSION OF ECU EDITOR.....

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