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Post Info TOPIC: Quick shifter for gen2


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RE: Quick shifter for gen2


STOCKER SAID HE TRIED IT AND IT WORKED OK FOR HIM...

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ALSO THE OLD SHIFTER CODE WILL NOT BE COMPATIBLE WITH THE NEW VERSION, SO YOU WILL HAVE DEACTIVATE THE OLD VERSION AND ACTIVATE THE NEW SHIFTER CODE. 

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Thanks B......I just came in from Beating my head against this thing some more lol....But I figured it out FINALLY!! When I put the Wires back in the Horn Plug....I SWAPPED them and didn't know it.......DUH!! disbeliefevileye
All is Working GREAT Now! I did some what like Marc did and put 40ms for 1&2 and then 60ms for 3,4,5,6 took it for a Test Ride and and it works PERFECT! So Smooth, No More Hideous Popping, and where I was having issue's shifting into 4&5th gear on the Kit with My old MPS Set-up, NOT ANYMORE!!! smile
I can't Wait to Dyno this thing(should be in about a week or so?), Cuz it Pull's like a Raped Ape on the Kit...... UNBELIEVABLE that its ALL done through the STOCK ECU!

PETRIK.....AGAIN, YOU ARE THE MAN SIR!!! Thank you for Sharing that Brilliant Mind of yours with us. The Kind of Tuning & Features you have brought to the Hayabusa Community is Simply Amazing!
GREG.....Thank you Sir for Providing Great Products that allow us to go Faster!



-- Edited by ToXSicK RoCKeT on Monday 19th of April 2010 03:44:59 AM

-- Edited by ToXSicK RoCKeT on Monday 19th of April 2010 03:47:30 AM

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yes, when i first opened the edited .bin with the old algorithim with the new code, i had # in the 200..?, then i realized to edit a new .bin generated with alfa 2.2.0.19 and go from there.....it worked great for me...good to hear that it works so smooth for you to phil, a big difference from the old code, and even with a kill at 40ms it still shifts....

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Am I right in thinking that the GPS input is being pulled down to ground via 220 ohms to 'tell' the ECU a gear change is commencing, and that the GPS voltage seen just before that 'event' is being used to decide how long to cut for?

I'm more used to seeing separate inputs for gear position and shift cut on motorsport systems and just trying to understand better how it works.....

Cheers Guys

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Chipwizard wrote:

Am I right in thinking that the GPS input is being pulled down to ground via 220 ohms to 'tell' the ECU a gear change is commencing, and that the GPS voltage seen just before that 'event' is being used to decide how long to cut for?

I'm more used to seeing separate inputs for gear position and shift cut on motorsport systems and just trying to understand better how it works.....

Cheers Guys



yes...

 



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Brilliant.

Thanks.

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any chance at auto shift??? auto shift rpm adjustable per gear?

shift kill working great.  shifting at 40 in 1 and 2.  50 in 3rd and up for the last two weekends.  Tried 45 in 3rd and up today and worked great.  guess I will try 40 in all gears tomarrow and see if it works.
then maybee try 35 in 1 and 2???

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You mean setting the pair output at a certain RPM to initiate a shift function ?

Not really preferrable as pair is used as a boost controller output and a nitrous solenoid output. Would need another output to go to that direction.






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PetriK wrote:

You mean setting the pair output at a certain RPM to initiate a shift function ?

Not really preferrable as pair is used as a boost controller output and a nitrous solenoid output. Would need another output to go to that direction.





Just Food for thought here Petrik, Maybe could use the "EVAP" Signal for an output of some kind as well??



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yeah but only california ecu's have evap if i am not mistaken

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Might be able to Flash in "Cali" Mode to enable....IDK??? Greg, do your bikes(Non-Ca Models)have the EVAP Plug under the Tank?

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dont think we have any extra plugs, and if its the same as gen 1 usa vs european our ecu's are probably missing the hardware inside for the evap control.

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ok.  I am not up 100% on how all of it works.  I thought you could maybee some how work in the code the signal from gps gives when......
Now I get it. :)
I have gregs air shifter harness.  push the button, solenoid opens, shifter moves, and gps sends signal to initiate kill.  I guess you could maybee programe something to kill at a given rpm every time, but some thing would still need to give a output to the shifter solenoid.
I plan on eventually useing the progresive nitrous control through the stock ecu and pair valve with gregs nitrous harness and mps spyder nitrous so yes I would rather have the pair valve control that.

I just didn't know if auto shifter would be posible and thought I would ask.  I would like to use it.
I have used it on other bikes with gregs kill box and auto shift with shift light, and with the nlr tic 1000.  Guess If I want it that bad I could go with greg's shift light with air shifter output.

thank you for all the fine products greg and PetriK.  I am very happy with my new 09 busa and the ecu editor software and gregs programing cable and shifter harness.

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what would you like to know in detail - shifter has even the poblished sourcecode here so all the info is propably on this board.

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Their is probably way more information then I need to know on the board.  lol..
I don't know how all the computer programing works.  I am just learning as I go.  I was just wondering if it was posible to have auto shifter.
Having a great time useing all that is available with ecu editor on my 09 busa.  I got a programing cable and will start reading up and learning what I can off of this board about the 05-06 gsxr 1000.  I am putting together a turbo 06 gsxr 1000 with a velocity stage 2 kit with a microtech box.  I know some have used the ms0 and ms1 to make a antilag map for when the clutch lever is pulled in.  will have to talk to turbo steve about what he did with his stock ecu before he got a wolf v300 standalone.

thank you
jeremy

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Do you mean air shifter auto shift or foot shifting auto shift ?

In one of the next versions foot shifting auto shift (constant preload and predetermined shifting point) will be most likely added for gen2 shifter code.




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correct me if i am wrong, but wouldn't holding pressure on the shifter a lot without actually shifting be hard on the shift forks etc?

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The latest build has now BKing shifter module available, thanks to justin for implementing this !!!



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awesome work Justin!

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PetriK wrote:

Do you mean air shifter auto shift or foot shifting auto shift ?

In one of the next versions foot shifting auto shift (constant preload and predetermined shifting point) will be most likely added for gen2 shifter code.




 air shifter auto shift.  biggrin



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Did some fixes to the shifter user interface today and changed some of the programming logic. This applies to ecueditor.com 2.5.0.15 and newer gen2 busa.

The minimum activation time and delay between shift times was visible on the user interface. Anyhow any changed values were not applied to the .bin. I am surprised that no-one had noticed that at any time when you opened up the screen these times were put back to original.

The biggest change is that the programming logic was changed so that the gear based shift kill time only works when DSM activation is active and DSM used for activation. This is because on some engines the shifter drum wears out so that any preload to the gear lever/switch may cause the engine to momentarily hit neutral gear maps which together with the resistor activation can cause a non shift situation to occur. This does not happen often, but on a racing engine the DSM activation is considered better than resistor which puts the engine to either neutral or first gear when pressure is applied to the lever. For a normal non racing user this is not really an issue.


-- Edited by PetriK on Sunday 19th of September 2010 03:57:07 PM

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Petrik i am not totally understanding, will all of the current users who are using the gear based kill time using the air shifter harness produced by matt at cycle-tek have to also use the DSM button? im a little confused

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Yes, the harness works as previously when in the new version you have "DSM and resistor" mode button enabled for gear shifting. Without gear based shift kill times the harness also works also fine.

Anyhow our testing on track reveals that there may be issues sometimes with shifting with used shift drums causing instability to the GPS signal. Also on track the users will benefit from using DSM activation with autoshift with preload function which is not possible with resistor only.

I always try to develop things so that hardware legacy is supported wink.gif. Anyhow if there are improvements suggested by real world on dyno or on track testing then I dont hesitate to say it aloud as my objective is always to bring out the absolute best solutions for track and street. This is the pain and pleasure of using this stuff where track feedback sometimes generates fast improvements for next track session.


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I too am confused as to what the dsm button does with the new code. I understand that different gears can be programmed with different kill times (A huge Plus for racing high horsepower bikes that have difficulty shifting to high gear) but I do not understand the function of the dsm to do this?

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Shift kill is initiated when DSM2 is grounded. So you just wire the pressure sensor switch to the DSM2 instead of to a resistor in parallel to GPS. This has nothing to do with the DSM button really.

With DSM & resistor setting active the gear based works with still with old resistor to GPS method.

The motivation for this addition of DSM2 I would like to develop this to a direction where DSM switch can be used for preloaded autoshifting and GPS sensor with resistor operates like it operates now. With resistor in parallel this can not be done as then the GPS switch would put the bike on a neutral map for all the time. For you guys running air shifter no difference really, but here not allowed on certain classes. Here preloaded autoshifting gives an edge to competition as no shift light is really needed. When to foot is preloading the shift lever then when e.g. reaching 11.200 this shift kill is initiated. With resistor mode you need to watch the shift light and then to press the lever which is way less reliable method.

My personal preference for next summer will be GPS&resistor for normal street riding + top speed runs and DSM2 for dragracing. I will most likely put a switch there into the wire that allows me to select either or depending on what I am doing. If I go to a clutched slider like its possible then need both methods of activation as without clutch can not switch on street really if I have understood the clutched slider correctly.

With airshifter my recommendation would be to put a pressure switch like cordona to the shift lever to detect exact shifting to avoid any delays with pressure building up and mechanics.

See the idea behind this wink.gif. Its just to become faster (this season was a disaster ET wise, can talk about details later) and have more consistent runs. Want to perfect things with the aid of technology wink.gif

ps. If you guys see that maybe we need something else to activate the shifter than DSM wire then lets use any other signal.


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Is anyone using the DSM method other than PetriK? I think there is mass confusion on exactly what the connection requirements are for DSM connection vs. GPS resistor connection.

I have researched this a bit, and I assume a switch or trigger needs to be conencted to a DSM wire (I assume this is EU pin 54) in order for this to work.

For those with a resistor already wired in, is this just a matter of disconnecting the wire going to the GPS sensor and resistor and connecting it to the DSM input?

-- Edited by sportbikeryder on Monday 6th of December 2010 03:54:23 PM

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Yes, use the kill switch to ground the selected dsm wire.

The benefit of this method is that bike does not hit the neutral map like it does with resistor, obviously for highly tuned bike unnecessary hits to neutral is what we want to avoid. This is why we initially developed this feature for racers.

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Sounds good Petrik. This also allows high gear to have a longer kill time if required. beer.gif



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The only problem is I use DSM to activate Nitrous.
Thought about it for a bit , will just re-wire Nitrous avtivation back to horn button.
Shifting on DSM seems better because of  adjustability per gear.
And of course I can use Launch Feature.biggrin
How cool is that !!
 

-- Edited by LenTurbo on Tuesday 7th of December 2010 05:06:34 AM

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Petrik ,
If I wire the Nitrous to DSM - upper , and shifter is on DSM - lower it should work ?
I will just relay the DSM - upper signal via the horn button to prevent my thumb from being disjointed again ...

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I don't think the DSM switch on the handlebar is the issue. I believe the trigger should be hooked to ECU pin 54. This is part of the confusion realting to using the DSM input.

PetriK, please correct if I am mistaken.

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This I understand ,

Hook up the DMS 2 (pin54) to shifter switch.
The GPS connection with resistor puts the Ecu in neutral map for shifting this will not do because it defeats the launch control setup.

Wire DMS 1 (pin37) to Nitrous activation (N2O set to "upper" in Nitrous Control)

Will test this weekend.





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im going to rewire my shifter for dsm activation. i get how it works but am very confused on the wiring. the way i see it the ground on the switch can be grounded anywhere but the other wire from shifter switch goes to the ground of the dsm2 button?? please correct me anybody if im wrong. if this is right is the best place to get at the dsm2 wiring in the switch block itself or somewhere else??

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Name:Hayabusa ECUeditor for K2-K7, K8- and BKing models
Version:2.5.0.29
 
shifter_dsm.jpg

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Nice but as i understand it if someone has the nitrous module active with tps/rpm/button the button must change to upper cause it's going to mess with the shifter connected at the DSM2.

I think the shifter connection must change to DSM1 if this is possible because the DSM2 is better for those who use nitrous module.

if this is difficult to be done we can always change the wires from the mode switch.

just my 2cent.

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PetriK wrote:

Name:Hayabusa ECUeditor for K2-K7, K8- and BKing models
Version:2.5.0.29
shifter_dsm.jpg


Great addition for clarification PetriK. When I get a free minute from my two under 3 year old daughters, I will hook this up, either directly to the horn button, or preferably through an air pressure switch (similar to this http://www.mpsracing.com/products/MPS/PressureSwitch.asp) to ensure the most effective aitshifter switching.

 

 



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thankyou petri

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Shift Module Change?


Hello Fella'z,
It's been a While Guy's, Busa has Been Packed away in Moth Balls lol...... But I am Getting Ready to Dive Head First back into it again! biggrin (Gonna Race the West Coast "Stock Pro" Class for 2011)
As I am Brushing Back up on things, I noticed in the Latest Version ofEE2.....There's been a bit of a change to the Shifter Module. Looks like We can't adjust Kill Time per Gear anymore?? confuse I'm a little Conserned on this......With my Bike I had to have 100ms for it to Shift into 4th, 5th, and 6th(WOULD NOT SHIFT ON THE N2O WITH ANYTHING LESS). 1-2 Shift I could get away with 40ms.
Was there a Problem with the Code/Module before and that's why I had to add so Much "MS" to the upper gears and Now it's Ok?
Please Help Me understand How "NOT" Having a Kill time Option per Gear is Better?
Thanks again Petrik & Crew smile ............ GLAD To see you Guy's are still Hard at it! wink


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You rather better use DSM activation for the per gear shift times to work perfect. There is additional minimum shift, which you can actually move as high as you want and therefore preload the shift lever the shift to happen at a predetermined rpm.

This way it should be faster and more reliable on track wink.gif

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ToXSicK RoCKeT wrote:

Hello Fella'z,
It's been a While Guy's, Busa has Been Packed away in Moth Balls lol...... But I am Getting Ready to Dive Head First back into it again! biggrin (Gonna Race the West Coast "Stock Pro" Class for 2011)
As I am Brushing Back up on things, I noticed in the Latest Version ofEE2.....There's been a bit of a change to the Shifter Module. Looks like We can't adjust Kill Time per Gear anymore?? confuse I'm a little Conserned on this......With my Bike I had to have 100ms for it to Shift into 4th, 5th, and 6th(WOULD NOT SHIFT ON THE N2O WITH ANYTHING LESS). 1-2 Shift I could get away with 40ms.
Was there a Problem with the Code/Module before and that's why I had to add so Much "MS" to the upper gears and Now it's Ok?
Please Help Me understand How "NOT" Having a Kill time Option per Gear is Better?
Thanks again Petrik & Crew smile ............ GLAD To see you Guy's are still Hard at it! wink




If I am not mistaken, teh kill times per gear were shown in the software, but in practice, they were not functioning as one would think. The alternate wiring with the DSM activation is more robust and shoudl work everythime without variance possibly due to resistance fuctuations in the GPS.



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If you preload the shifter well before shift time then it could confuse the logic in shifter. This new method of using DSM is better as it allows you always preload and ensure that shift takes place at predetermined RPM. Kind of autoshifting feature with footshifting...



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The Problem I have though is I'm Not Foot Shifting, I have a Air Shifter.(this is what Most use here in the States for Drag Racing) The Bike Would Shift Perfect EVERY TIME 1-2 & Some Times 2-3 with 30-40ms, But would NOT Shift at ALL into 4,5,6 Gear on Nitrous at that Same MS. I Finally got it to Start Shifting "MOST" of the Time into the Higher Gears by upping the time to 100ms(might have even been 120ms...Can't remember Now) and My Air PSI(actually Run Nitrous instead of Co2....Same thing though) was set at 130psi.(I have gone as High as 150psi with NO Difference?)

Petrik, Could you Possibly implement a Setting for Both Way's? ie, the Way it is Currently, for use with the DSM Switch. Then also have a Box we could Check for the Way it Used to be(different Kill Times Per gear)?

I am Quite Surprised more People have not had the Same Problem with this yet? confuse Too my knowledge the Only other way to Cure this would be to tear the Engine apart and have the Trans "Race Cut"??
Thanks again Petrik & John for the Help. wink  

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PetriK wrote:



If you preload the shifter well before shift time then it could confuse the logic in shifter. This new method of using DSM is better as it allows you always preload and ensure that shift takes place at predetermined RPM. Kind of autoshifting feature with footshifting...



Petrik, If I am using My DSM For Nitrous Activation, then I could Not use it for the Shifter......Correct?

 



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I read somewhere that when you are using N2O ( instead of compressed air ) you "freeze" the shifter so it don`t shift.
Your problem will problaby go away if you change to air....


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Toxsick
It sounds like a delay problem between solenoid activation and actual kill time.
Keep in mind that the air shifter actuator mechanism is mechanical and requires time to fill the pneumatic actuator and build up pressure.
If you wire your shift button directly to the solenoid and use a pressure switch to initiate engine kill it should work , or alternatively putting in some kind of delay.
On my old turbo bike I just wired in a relay in series to give the gas time to build some pressure.
This has the same effect as preloading the shift lever.

Wired my Nitrous activation to Top DMS and Shifter is on Bottom.
Have not tested yet though , has been raining here almost non stop since Xmas.

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Yngve wrote:

I read somewhere that when you are using N2O ( instead of compressed air ) you "freeze" the shifter so it don`t shift.

Your problem will problaby go away if you change to air....


N2O is No Different than CO2(and that's what 80% of the Racers are using today). I have 0 Problems with My system Freezing, If the were the Case it wouldn't Matter How much Kill time I put in it.

 



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LenTurbo wrote:

Toxsick
It sounds like a delay problem between solenoid activation and actual kill time.
Keep in mind that the air shifter actuator mechanism is mechanical and requires time to fill the pneumatic actuator and build up pressure.
If you wire your shift button directly to the solenoid and use a pressure switch to initiate engine kill it should work , or alternatively putting in some kind of delay.
On my old turbo bike I just wired in a relay in series to give the gas time to build some pressure.
This has the same effect as preloading the shift lever.

Wired my Nitrous activation to Top DMS and Shifter is on Bottom.
Have not tested yet though , has been raining here almost non stop since Xmas.



Thanks Len,
the In-Line Relay sounds interesting. I have TRIED just about everything else I could think of, Different Regulators, Different Pressures, Different Air Valves, Air, Co2, Nitrous, Line lengths, Different Ram Configurations, etc....
Right Now I'm running about 120psi, Solenoid mounted right to Shifter Ram, using one of Greg's air shifter Plug-n-Play Harness's with EE2 Software for Activation. I can get the Bike to shift like BUTTER from 1-2 & Sometimes 2-3 with No Problems, BUT 4,5,6th.....NO GO without a CRAP LOAD of MS Kill Time! no 
P.S. Not that this Should Matter(I don't think), But I run a Multi Stage Lock-up Clutch.....Soon will be Going to a MTC Gen2.   
Little More on this Relay idea, could you elaborate a little more on this Please? You Mentioned wiring it up in series......are you using this just as another Circuit in the System to delay signal to the Solenoid? 
I'm Really having a Hard time Wrapping my head around the Problem being a PSI Build time issue with having the Valve mounted right to the Ram.....Should Fill INSTANT(I would think?) with the Valve Mounted right to Ram?   
Thanks for any and ALL help....I have been Pulling my Hair out on these shifting Problems Since day One! Thanks again,
Phil

 



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ToXSicK RoCKeT wrote:

Yngve wrote:

I read somewhere that when you are using N2O ( instead of compressed air ) you "freeze" the shifter so it don`t shift.

Your problem will problaby go away if you change to air....


N2O is No Different than CO2(and that's what 80% of the Racers are using today). I have 0 Problems with My system Freezing, If the were the Case it wouldn't Matter How much Kill time I put in it.

 



We use nitrous as well in one of our bikes. That said, there is a difference between nitrous and CO2. Nitrous is introducedd into the system as a liquid (either through a siphon tube if the bottle is upright, or without a tube if inverted. CO2 is typically introduced as a gas (inverted if there is a siphon tube or upright if not). The liquid could theoretically freeze the system, while the gas will not.

As mentioned, we use it without problems. We also do have an expansion tank on teh bike after the low pressure (140psi) regulator, which would eliminate the liquid anyway.

 



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sportbikeryder wrote:
 

 



We use nitrous as well in one of our bikes. That said, there is a difference between nitrous and CO2. Nitrous is introducedd into the system as a liquid (either through a siphon tube if the bottle is upright, or without a tube if inverted. CO2 is typically introduced as a gas (inverted if there is a siphon tube or upright if not). The liquid could theoretically freeze the system, while the gas will not.

As mentioned, we use it without problems. We also do have an expansion tank on teh bike after the low pressure (140psi) regulator, which would eliminate the liquid anyway.

 



Yes that's Correct John, I run My Bottle inverted, and at 120PSI there sould be No liquid(N2O under 700-725psi should be in a Gas State). I have checked for Freezing and there appears to be None. Believe it or Not, I had ALL KINDS of Freezing Problems when I ran Straight CO2.......Go Figure? confuse
Thanks John smile

 



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