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Post Info TOPIC: Quick shifter for gen2


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RE: Shift Module Change?


ToXSick
Did the problem get a bit better when you moved solenoid onto the Shifter Ram.
If it did then you require a delay.

Wired the Solenoid activation relay to shift button , then the contact of this relay will energise the coil of relay 2 of wich the contact again initiates the kill.
Having one relay energise the next takes some mS as it is a mechanical link that has to close.
In effect you have relay 1 activated by shift button which also opens the soleniod.
Now the solenoid is open and relay 1 energises relay 2 and kill is now only initiated.
My Turbo also runs MS Lockup.
Instead of relay 2 you can also use a pressure switch which works best.
This is a failsafe way of preloading the shift mechanism before ignition kill and is adjustable.
You could also chech that your gear lever is latching properly between shifts.
Sometimes a restriction in the solenoid exhaust or opposite port of the Ram prevents this from happening properly.
The last thing I can think of is the pivot point setting of gear lever mechanism at Gearbox.
I adjust mine to about 2 spline before vertical. You dont want it vertical or over towards front of bike.


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LenTurbo wrote:

ToXSick
Did the problem get a bit better when you moved solenoid onto the Shifter Ram.
If it did then you require a delay.

Wired the Solenoid activation relay to shift button , then the contact of this relay will energise the coil of relay 2 of wich the contact again initiates the kill.
Having one relay energise the next takes some mS as it is a mechanical link that has to close.
In effect you have relay 1 activated by shift button which also opens the soleniod.
Now the solenoid is open and relay 1 energises relay 2 and kill is now only initiated.
My Turbo also runs MS Lockup.
Instead of relay 2 you can also use a pressure switch which works best.
This is a failsafe way of preloading the shift mechanism before ignition kill and is adjustable.
You could also chech that your gear lever is latching properly between shifts.
Sometimes a restriction in the solenoid exhaust or opposite port of the Ram prevents this from happening properly.
The last thing I can think of is the pivot point setting of gear lever mechanism at Gearbox.
I adjust mine to about 2 spline before vertical. You dont want it vertical or over towards front of bike.



Len, Cool....Thank you for Responding back and Helping Me out Buddy. smile I Will Wire a Bosh Relay in Series and see How this Pans out?
As far as the other idea's, I am Pretty sure the Mechanic's of the System itself is Set up Correctly. That's one of the Reasons why I moved My Ram from being mounted Horizontal/Parallel to the Shifter Arm and was then Connected to the Shifter Linkage(was Very Sloppy) to a Vertical Position and attached the Ram/Clevis from the Ram straight to and as far down the Shifter arm as Possible(to get Most Leverage).  
Gonna give the Relay a Try though and see if this Cures it.......I have to be Doing SOMETHING Wrong, as I seem to be the Only one having this Problem??? confuse
Thanks again Len. wink

 



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08 Busa AKA: }ToXSicK{


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My busa does the exact same thing. I am setup the exact same way. I have a regulator mounted directly off of the nitrous bottle set to 140psi. Gregs air shifter harness. solenoid mounted directly to shifter ram and useing spencer cycle shift bracket. I have done this exact setup with several different kill boxs and never had a problem.
Shifter worked perfect when it was normally asperated. Never missed a shift. started at 60ms kill time. worked it all the way down to 40ms in all gears and never missed a shift once. I am runing around 70hp of nitrous. It started missing 4,5, and 6th gears instantly on the nitrous. I had to open the kill time all the way up to 90-100 ms of kill time in 4,5, and 6th for it to shift every time.
I just checked my files and I had the kill time set at all 60ms (not gear dependant any more). I can't remember if it shifted every run on nitrous or not at 60ms.

-- Edited by badass1000 on Friday 7th of January 2011 04:34:49 AM

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badass1000 wrote:

My busa does the exact same thing. I am setup the exact same way. I have a regulator mounted directly off of the nitrous bottle set to 140psi. Gregs air shifter harness. solenoid mounted directly to shifter ram and useing spencer cycle shift bracket. I have done this exact setup with several different kill boxs and never had a problem.
Shifter worked perfect when it was normally asperated. Never missed a shift. started at 60ms kill time. worked it all the way down to 40ms in all gears and never missed a shift once. I am runing around 70hp of nitrous. It started missing 4,5, and 6th gears instantly on the nitrous. I had to open the kill time all the way up to 90-100 ms of kill time in 4,5, and 6th for it to shift every time.
I just checked my files and I had the kill time set at all 60ms (not gear dependant any more). I can't remember if it shifted every run on nitrous or not at 60ms.

-- Edited by badass1000 on Friday 7th of January 2011 04:34:49 AM



Glad to Know I'm Not the Only One pulling My Hair out...lol hmm Well I guess this(EE2 Shift Module) is the Way it's Gonna Stay, So I am gonna give what Len said to do a Shot, with the Relay and See what Happens? If Most are not having an issue, Then I guess We'll just have to figure it out and Work around it?
The Thing that Sucks for Me the Most is it's Hard to Test this Problem on the Street(Bike Getz kinda Hairy on the Kit & Clicking 4, 5, & 6th Gear on the Street), So I usally have to Find out at the Track that My Damn Bike isn't shifting. evileye Then I end up spending My whole Day trying different things to Fix the Problem......instead of getting what I REALLY need, SEAT TIME & Tuning to Go Faster.
Oh Well, Just have to work through it, I will report back and let everyone(well the one's that are interested lol)know what happens. smile And PLEASE if Someone else has a thought or Solution to any of this, PLEASE post it up? Thanks for the input Badazz1000 wink 

 



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08 Busa AKA: }ToXSicK{


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It couldn't just be that there's more time needed for the whole chassis to 'unload' when on nitrous because of the extra torque could it?

Just a thought.

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Chipwizard wrote:

It couldn't just be that there's more time needed for the whole chassis to 'unload' when on nitrous because of the extra torque could it?

Just a thought.



I believe that's Exactly what it is! Only Problem is I only need like 30-40ms to Shift the Bike "CLEAN"(No Stumbling/Nosing Over)in my 1-2 & 2-3 Shifts, But in the Rest of the Shift's I had to Turn it up to 100-120ms(and Yes I Tried, 60,70,80,90ms as well) For the Bike to shift into 4,5, & 6th Gear. 
Thanks for the Comment Chip smile .....Please Guy's Keep them coming, There's Got to be Something I'm over looking Here? 

 



-- Edited by ToXSicK RoCKeT on Sunday 9th of January 2011 12:17:23 AM

-- Edited by ToXSicK RoCKeT on Sunday 9th of January 2011 12:19:19 AM

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It is not uncommon for a bike to begin to not shift when you start pouring on the power. IT usually starts sooner (lower power levels) with nitrous than with a turbo.

As for using the DSM for nitrous activation, I believe that you are using ECU pin 37 (DSM1) for the nitrous activation. The shifter uses a pin number 54 (DSM2). You should be able to use both at the same time.

Also, you can increase the value in the "activation" the shifter section. This is a value related to a delay from the time you press the button and the time the ecu initiates the kill.

As soon as you push the button, your air solenoid is opened and air begins to fill the cylinder. The delay gives the shift cylinder time to begin to build pressure before the kill happens.

Another option is to install an air pressure switch on the cylinder side of the sir system (after the solenoid). This allows you to wire the horn button only to the shift solenoid. The pressure switch is hooked to the kill activation (pin 54). This pressurizes the cylinder, causing a bit of preload, before initiating the kill.


What clutch is in the bike? There is a chance that it may be slipping a bit in the higher gears while spraying. A slipping clutch will cause difficult shifting.

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ToXSicK
My Gen II turbo (ECUEditor) has the same problem on a slick track. To much boost and the rear tire is "hazing" and the damn thing won't shift into 4th and/or fifth. If I turn the kill time up it shifts @ 90ms. OR if I turn the boost down where the tire is not "spinning", it will shift at 50ms. I can hardly see any RPM spike on my datalogs. when the tire is what I call hazing.
I wouldn't be looking at your EcuEditor or airshifter setups for the problem. I had this same problem years ago on an old GS N2O bike. Seems like these constant-mesh trannies shift better under a load. I think a "Nitrious Cut" tranny can reduce this. Call Paul Gast at Fast-by-Gast and he can explain the N20 transmission phenomena to ya.

-- Edited by turbogpz on Sunday 9th of January 2011 03:14:33 AM

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Great Info, Thank you John & Turbo. smile 
After Talking with Some other Guru's I Think it Very Well might be what you Said Turbo, About the Clutch/Tire Slipping. I Believe Now the Problem was/is in My Clutch Slipping under N2O Load(s). It's Right @ a 50-60hp Shot and I Weigh 280lbs in Street Cloths! ashamed......To say the Least, Clutch takes Some Abuse! hmm
I Do have a MTC Lock Up in it Now, But think I may Not Have Enough Weight on the Arms?
At any Rate, I'm getting Ready to go with a MTC Gen2 Clutch.....Soo I will See what Happens there and Keep a Close eye on My Tune Up.
Thanks Again for EVERYONE'S Help Here, You guy's Rock! wink 
PS. John, thanks For the Tip on adding Time to the Activation box, Never even thought about trying that......Very Good to Know!

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08 Busa AKA: }ToXSicK{


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Well if you're getting slip or even a lot of creep on the tyre then that will slow down when the cut activates, just as the crank does. Your shift cut times will need to be long enough for the crank speed to drop (percentually) below wheel speed or the dogs won't unload.

On loose surfaces, like in grasstrack, you tend to have to either avoid shifting while wheelspinning or have long cut times.

Would a 90ms cut hurt et's much relative to a 40ms cut in the real world?

There are ways around it, but at considerable effort and expense.

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FROM TOXSICK ROCKET:

Now on to the DSM Shift Activation.......
I guess I'm not understanding the Software or Exactly what you Mean here?(Please Forgive Me)
It was My understanding that the DSM/Shifter was Meant for the Elect. Foot Assisted Shifters.....Not for Air/Co2 Shifters? (Please Correct Me if this is not Correct)
I remember someone Saying I could Wire the DSM to work with My Air Shifter, But Here is My Delimma,
Current Flash for My Bike is;
N2O is On when;  DSM Activated(Down Position) RPM >6800, TPS 100%(Turns off @ 11,000RPM's)
So if I wired My Air Shifter to the Other Side of the DSM Switch, How could I Keep the Nitrous On and Shift the Bike at the Same Time?
I really Like having the Extra Safety Feature of having a "Button" to have to Push along with the 100% TPS/RPM Nitrous Activation.
Again....Please, if I am not Understanding all this Correctly feel Free to Correct Me?
Thank you Petrik smile







Toxsick,
Whe you wire the shifter to DSM2, you can disconnect the wiring at the ECY pin adn wire the shifter into that. This iwll not affect your nitrous activation done through pressing the down button on teh handlebar. Basically, it is not really intended to press the up button when the shift gets activated, it is just that that is the trigger in teh ecu. The wiring woufl simply change from teh trigger you currently have to connect the resistor to teh GPS going to PIN 54 of the ECU rather than the gear position switch.

The actual switch on the handlebar can remain disconnected.

-- Edited by sportbikeryder on Wednesday 12th of January 2011 05:13:09 PM

-- Edited by sportbikeryder on Wednesday 12th of January 2011 05:13:45 PM

-- Edited by sportbikeryder on Wednesday 12th of January 2011 05:17:26 PM

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sportbikeryder wrote:
Toxsick,
Whe you wire the shifter to DSM2, you can disconnect the wiring at the ECY pin adn wire the shifter into that. This iwll not affect your nitrous activation done through pressing the down button on teh handlebar. Basically, it is not really intended to press the up button when the shift gets activated, it is just that that is the trigger in teh ecu. The wiring woufl simply change from teh trigger you currently have to connect the resistor to teh GPS going to PIN 54 of the ECU rather than the gear position switch.

The actual switch on the handlebar can remain disconnected.

-- Edited by sportbikeryder on Wednesday 12th of January 2011 05:13:09 PM

-- Edited by sportbikeryder on Wednesday 12th of January 2011 05:13:45 PM

-- Edited by sportbikeryder on Wednesday 12th of January 2011 05:17:26 PM


"PETRIK; Please select DSM activation mode on shifter to see the wiring, that should be self explanatory in addition what John said in another thread."


OK, I "FINALLY" Understand What you Guy's Are Saying about the DSM"2"/PIN 54! wink WOW....Do I feel like a MORON NOW!!! lol (I'M SORRY Petrik & John, But I Really couldn't Wrap My head Around it Until Now no)
I get it Now, Pin 54 off the ECU Will Trigger My Shift Solenoid(As long as I have selected it in Shifter Module of Course)and will Take the Place of Greg's Harness(Which I can Remove Now) I Currently have installed on My Bike now. Then the ECU Will Trigger My Shifter at the RPM I have set it For in the Software. (I kept thinking I would Have to Actually PUSH the DSM Button for it to Send Power to the Shifter and then it would Shift the Bike at the RPM in the Box Per Gear.....Didn't Realise it Happens Automatically......DUHHHH!!!! hmm )

Now I see Why this way is "FAR" Superior than the Way it Was!(what Petrik was Trying to tell Me all ALONG!) smile

AGAIN GUY'S, THANK YOU For Having the Paitence to Keep Helping Me understand what was Right in Front of My Face. I Feel Like an IDIOT Now that I understand! I'm VERY Sorry for not Getting a Grip on this Sooner. 
Thanks again Fella's for ALL the Great Work & Help!!!!! smile

 


 



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08 Busa AKA: }ToXSicK{


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RE: Quick shifter for gen2


Looks Like I wasn't the Only one Confused onthe DSM2 Shifter Swap lol. Should have went Here First and Read all this, Would Have Saved alot of Un-Nessesary Questions to the Board.
Marc, how do you Feel about this being a "Sticky" Thread?

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08 Busa AKA: }ToXSicK{


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RE: Shift Module Change?


you guys really need a ecu editor for dummies. :)
So if I wire it as listed above it will auto shift my air shifter, and I can have different kill times per gear again?

I can't wait for the track to open again. Really looking forward to trying some new things out. Primer to log, auto tune, and ROA.

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No Pron Toxsick, that's what the forums are for!

badass, it will act as a shift kill only, it will not auto shift unless you have a means to create an auto trigger for the input. Conventionalls, the horn button is used for the trigger into the ecu and the shift occurs when the horn is depressed.

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I am useing gregs harness with a air shifter.  so I am wireing in to the horn button to the air shift solenoid with the resistor to tell the ecu when I am shifting instead of useing the GPS?
I will have kill time selectable per gear again.  Their is the auto shift, but it does not have a output to the air shifter solenoid.  so the auto shift in the ecu works if I preload the shift lever and shift that way. 
Looks like i still have to get a shift light with air shifter output from greg if I want auto shift.

Thank you
jeremy



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Quick shifter for gen2


......   

 



-- Edited by ToXSicK RoCKeT on Thursday 13th of January 2011 11:09:46 PM

-- Edited by ToXSicK RoCKeT on Sunday 16th of January 2011 10:02:25 PM

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08 Busa AKA: }ToXSicK{


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Appear to have successfully flashed the Busa program on to my B-King.

Gauges seem to be OK.

Haven't carried out a data logging session yet or used my previous data logged file just going to start with a clean sheet and work up from there.

Now to go for a ride and test, will let you know how it goes.

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Forgot to mention, the reason for using the Busa program is for shifter and Nitrous function.

Have installed the BoostbySmith unit and Nitrous to come.

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Thats cool, i have been running the busa bin in my b-king without any problems since i hacked it, engine data works no probs.

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Should think a bit before hitting the send button.

What is the latest version , I am currently using 2.5.5.24.

I noticed a page back somebody with a 2.5.5.29 version?

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i did a release last week, latest version is 2.5.5.24

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Excellent Thanks.

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All good, working fine.

Thanks Justin & Petrik great work & fun to tune and play with.

This has really changed the way I think about my bikes, no longer am I going to fart around with carburettors unless its absolutely necessary or on a particular classic.

Sorry Bandit you gotta go!!!



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In the class that I run in at Bonneville I'm not allowed to run an external quick shifter, currently I'm running one of Smith's. Someone told me that on his Gen 1 he wired the horn button into the QS circuit and used that for engine kill. Is it as easy as making a connector harness that goes in the GPS circuit that goes through the horn button or do I need to have something else in there? Thank you for the help.

Mike



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This is the GEN2 forum, but yes, you could kill the engine with the horn button. You need to wire in a 220ohm resistor that is connected to the GPS when you press the horn button.

Not sure that a kill will be legal though if a quick shifter is not legal..

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Sorry forgot to mention that mine is a Gen II and was wondering if I could do the same thing as he did on his Gen I.
It would be legal because they are concerned with the apperance and the QS solenoid did not come stock with the bike and can be seen.
Thank you for the help.
MJ


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Oh, If it is a GEN 2 it is very simple. If the DMS2 input is grounded, and the DMS2 method is selected in the software, it will activate the shift kill.

If the right side control is still on the bike, you could just reflash and use the stock Drive Mode Select switch. Preload the shifter with your foot, press the button and it will slip into the next gear.

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DMS2 is pin 54 on the stock ecu by the way. Any method you choose to ground this pin will activate teh shift kill.

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Great, thank you for the reply. It sounds easier than doing the resistor thing. I really have gotten spoiled with the quickshifter and feel under race conditions it is better on the transmission.

I'll track some wires down and make something up that will be hidden and looks "factory".



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Mike , not sure if its legal for PP but i set the shifter for race pattern , changing the short lever on the shift shaft 180 deg , much easier to tap down to shift than to move your foot under the lever , esp for the 5-6 gear change then get back in your tuck

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Can someone tell me where the Dano's Quick sift module connects into? I see a couple of connectors that are the same. Does anyone have a picture or can you explain which one it is?

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You can connect it inline with the GPS..

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I think there are two different switches available with that quick shifter, normally open and normally closed.


What's up Dwight, haven't "seen" you around much.

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What's up John, I know...sold both bike...might get another one soon though...

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What's up John, I know...sold both bike...might get another one soon though...

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