A concept for boost enrichment...

smithabusa · Guru

RE: A concept for boost enrichment...

stocker · Guru

petrik has put that e-85 stuff in my head,but there is some things that we need to work out first with control of the software first i think...e-85 has different reid-vapor rate,different spefic gravity,different,btu, per pound....we should "master" fossil fuels first?? man i went through he** with my 600ci pro-stock engine changing fuels to get it to run the same compared to c-16,compared to alcohol......e-85 may be the future for the bike guy's.but as some would know,there is two different "blends" of e-85,summer,and winter.....there is a fuel company called rocket fuels that produces e-85 reletavely cheap that the formula does not change,so you do not have to change the tune due to the seasons......

smithabusa · Guru

who rides in the winter LOL?

busa2001 · Guru

come on greg you never try to ride in 2 feet of snow?

stocker · Guru

me,it is around 70 degrees here in florida in december......ha..ha...... biggrin

..all the big -time racers flock to florida to test all winter long,while everybody else freezes their butts off,thats why i can test and tune all year long........... biggrin

stocker · Guru

snow???i have to travel 600+ miles to see that stuff....hell i only own a couple pairs of pants,it is so hot here all year long.....and the tracks never close......... smile

...and one of the mayjor ones is 15 minutes from my house....... biggrin

-- Edited by stocker on Wednesday 5th of August 2009 03:37:20 AM

smithabusa · Guru

so they have different fuel in the 70 degree winter?

smithabusa · Guru

stocker · Guru

smithabusa wrote:

damm gerg you are the man at this stuff,good for you,if it was not for you this stuff would be so main-stream.......great job........and your stuff looks great as-usual.....keep it up........ smile

stocker · Guru

hey,the green wire is throwing me off..........

smithabusa · Guru

huh? green wire? Not sure what you mean LOL

I am pretty sure this is the mating connector to the map sensor.

stocker · Guru

smithabusa wrote:

huh? green wire? Not sure what you mean LOL

I am pretty sure this is the mating connector to the map sensor.

great job greg,i am just playing,i am in a good mood tonight....,thanks for all you do for the motorcycle community......... biggrin biggrin

smithabusa · Guru

LOL gotcha, been a LONG LONG day, going to bed now.
Take er easy y'all

stocker · Guru

hey it is only 12:16 pm here,i still have a couple of hours left,then i have to be at work at 7am to tell my employees what to do....... biggrin

...thanks for all you do.....you made it easy for the average guy to be able to flash their bike with your plug-n-play stuff...... smile

busa2001 · Guru

connector looks good Greg... smile

busa2001 · Guru

smithabusa wrote:

LOL gotcha, been a LONG LONG day, going to bed now.
Take er easy y'all

i didn't think you sleep....

busa2001 · Guru

stocker wrote:

hey it is only 12:16 pm here,i still have a couple of hours left,then i have to be at work at 7am to tell my employees what to do..........thanks for all you do.....you made it easy for the average guy to be able to flash their bike with your plug-n-play stuff......

it's pass your bed time... biggrin

stocker · Guru

speaking of different blends from the big "companies" i can post an article from an repetuable fuel "huge" surplier here in the us that will explain the difference between the summer,and winter blend of e-85,and the difference between the "race" blend that stays the same all year long if someone is interested....I am sure i can dig it up .......

stocker · Guru

you too,in the windy city....... biggrin

busa2001 · Guru

i'm about to, just got home from school....

stocker · Guru

busa2001 wrote:

i'm about to, just got home from school....

damm b,when i get more info downloaded,i will get ahold of you and we can go over it.........good night.... smile

PetriK · Guru

Looks good !

Thinking about adding Psi/Kpa display on the boostfuel module and possibly also map tracing so that when tuning starts the tools will be avail soon too.

stocker · Guru

damm,even petrik is up across the pond still thinking of great things for the gen2 users......thank you too petrik,i just downloaded the latest version of ee2.keep up everything you do,it gives me lots of encouragement......

busa2001 · Guru

stocker wrote:

busa2001 wrote:

i'm about to, just got home from school....

damm b,when i get more info downloaded,i will get ahold of you and we can go over it.........good night....

sound good Marc..... smile

PetriK · Guru

The boost enrichment map is now calibrated for gm3 bar sensor using voltage conversion formula and pressure tables found on internet. Also tracing bug is fixed, now the boost gauge on boostfuel module page should show correct boost in both psi and kpa depending on ecu type.

busa2001 · Guru

very nice work as alway Petrik...

PetriK · Guru

On the desktop I have a new safety feature in test:

- Make the FI light blink if Boost > 15psi (or any user defined value)
- Make the FI light blink if AFR > 13.2 (or any user defined value) and Boost > 0.2bar (fixed limit)

How does these default limits sound ?

Under nomal engine conditions the sensor errors make the FI light stay constantly on. If boost or AFR limit exceeded the Cxx errorcode will display C00 and these will not show on ecueditor DTC list.

This is part of the boostfuel module and shall be part of nitrous controlling module

busa2001 · Guru

so we will be able to set the limits or will they be fix, would be nice if the user could adjust the limits... smile

PetriK · Guru

Boost and AFR adjustable. The positive pressure limit I would like to keep fixed just for simplicity. May need to add TPS>50% or something in there.

sportbikeryder · Guru

Yes, higher TPS would be good to prevent lights from a pressure surge from snapping the throttle shut, even if there is a blow off valve, may stilll spike a bit.

busa2001 · Guru

cool sounds good..

PetriK · Guru

In addition to the boost fuelling the boost solenoid control should also work already. On desktop it works the following way:
- When pressure is below threshold, duty% is decreasing into 0% with 10% steps one at each cycle
- When pressure is above threshold the duty is increasing into 100% with 10% steps one at each cycle

Currently it runs 10Hz cycle, but can be programmed to run any reasonable solenoid controlling speed.

Connect the TX line from ECU to a transistor that drives the mosfet. TX line is the same to which the yellow FTDI connects.

I suggest building this to an yoshbox plug, even though one needs to remove it for flashing. Same harness should be usable for Nitrous Control solenoid too.

It provides +5V if nothing is connected. Boost controller firmware pushes the line to 0V when solenoid is to be closed, and to +5V when solenoid is to be opened.

Here also visually how it works. I.e. when boost pressure increases the duty cycle of the boost pressure control solenoid is increased. That way the pressure control solenoids leaks an increasing amount of pressure until the pressure starts to drop again and hence should maintain the desired pressure.

Same but other way round happens when boost pressure is decreasing.

-- Edited by PetriK on Sunday 16th of August 2009 03:32:34 PM

PetriK · Guru

Megasquirt uses the schematic below for boost controller. It may work as it is with busa ecueditor boost controller, depending on how much current is needed or it may need one additional switching transistor before the 100R resistor.

This is to be connected to to the TXd0 pin of the ECU - i.e. same pin to which the yellow FTDI cable wire connects to.

EDIT - The way how this can be implemented could mean that the duty cycle needs to decrease to prevent boost being "flushed" into intake. Anyway when someone wants to start experimenting with this we can decide if the duty cycle is used for "flushing extra pressure from actuator line" or if it is used for "allowing pressure to enter the actuator".

-- Edited by PetriK on Sunday 16th of August 2009 06:08:33 PM

sportbikeryder · Guru

PetriK,
I responded on SH.org, not fully understanding that you alrady have a closed loop system. This looks as if it should work wel, provided frequency response is "tuned" to the solenoid used and the system is not underdamped (always chasing the target), although with your increasing and decreasing dutycycle modulation, it may be good to go.

I believe most bike applications woudl just vent to atmosphere instead of back into the intake as there is no Mass Air sensing.

Venting pressure is likely better than adding pressure as adding will require a small bleed (controlled air leak) in order fo rthe actuator to close again.

This should work ok for a single port wastegate application.

Just curious, is thee a possiblity to drive more than one solenoid using the YOSH connector or just one Output? If more than one, perhaps a two solenoid, increase / decrease system could eventually be developed.

John

smithabusa · Guru

actually we may need a flow control before the solenoid as well, even with a solenoid completely wide open you may not pick up much boost due to the orifice sizing in the 6jj52 solenoids, a flow control inline to the gate and solenoid will make the response of the solenoid tuneable

PetriK · Guru

no, did not have a closed loop until you mentioned about it. Took about an hour to modify the nitrous style open loop control to closed loop. As said, not really difficult.

The way I see this without understanding the turbos much, there is two different methods. I quite like this first one because of possibilities it gives, but guess that many are more familiar with the second one.

Comments to these alternate controlling methods ?

1) Pressure control with venting ?

2) Pressure releaase control ?

As I dont really understand turbos, why would there be a need for two controls. Could someone throw a picture and explanation ?

-- Edited by PetriK on Monday 17th of August 2009 05:15:18 AM

sportbikeryder · Guru

When a 2 port wastegate is used, a pressure chamber exists both above and belos the diaphragm. Also a spring below the diaphragm to keep the gate shut. The 2 port gate allows additional boost pressure to be applied to the top of the diaphragm, essentially increasing the spring pressure and holding the wastegate closed. This allows a small spring to be used to allow low boost for launching or lower gears, and then as much additional pressure as desired on the backside to increase boost to whatever is desired. Can be done to a limited extent using only manifold pressure, but is common to use an external air supply in racing to be able to put whatever pressure is desired at any time.

The "increase" solenoid adds pressure to the backside of the diaphragm while the decrease solenoid vents it. They work (pulse) in conjunction with each other to maintain a set, closed loop pressure on the backside of the gate, leaving the "front" (opening) side of the gate connected to manifold pressure to open the gate.

John

sportbikeryder · Guru

THis is the plumbing schematic for the AMS 1000.

stocker · Guru

sportbikeryder wrote:

THis is the plumbing schematic for the AMS 1000.

now thats the control i'm talking about.......

ToXSicK RoCKeT · Senior Member

But, thats a STAND ALONE system? Is this kinda control even possible with a Stock ECU?

stocker · Guru

I was hopeing that that kind of algrothim could be written and implemented into the stock ecu....thats what i was wishing..... aww

stocker · Guru

a man can dream....thats why i was trying so hard to get it done,not just for gen1,but also for gen2.......

PetriK · Guru

sportbikeryder wrote:

When a 2 port wastegate is used, a pressure chamber exists both above and belos the diaphragm. Also a spring below the diaphragm to keep the gate shut. The 2 port gate allows additional boost pressure to be applied to the top of the diaphragm, essentially increasing the spring pressure and holding the wastegate closed. This allows a small spring to be used to allow low boost for launching or lower gears, and then as much additional pressure as desired on the backside to increase boost to whatever is desired. Can be done to a limited extent using only manifold pressure, but is common to use an external air supply in racing to be able to put whatever pressure is desired at any time.

The "increase" solenoid adds pressure to the backside of the diaphragm while the decrease solenoid vents it. They work (pulse) in conjunction with each other to maintain a set, closed loop pressure on the backside of the gate, leaving the "front" (opening) side of the gate connected to manifold pressure to open the gate.

John

Do you mean that venting is not fast enough or is this purely an issue of spring force vs. manifold pressure ?

It is possible to have more signals out of the gen2 ecu, but at this stage would rather concentrating on making this work and tweaking the fuel, boost and ignition using ecu and utilize e.g. ignition for better torque under no boost conditions. This morning had some time to think about ignition control and that may be even easier than earlier thought of.

The current idea is to have a boost/ignition retard map being added, or maybe just a formula .e.g. 3degrees/14psi and everything above and below linearly. Comments to this ?

What about intake air and clt temperatures ?

After we have this working will divert to nitrous control. Everything thats done for turbos will help with nitrous.

smithabusa · Guru

wow, ignition table would be awesome, i think something like you say is good enough

sportbikeryder · Guru

I agree that the linear would be ok, however, it may be better to have a step function, i.e. no retard until a set psi, then a linear retard.

PetriK · Guru

ok - lets see what is easiest to start with.

btw - received a gm 3bar sensor, partno 12223861.

Suzuki to gm 3bar relation varies by voltage.There is a 0.7V offset with suzuki sensors compared to gm 3bar and then when using divider of 1,85 we get the gm3 bar. No wonder that the fuelling using GM3 bar was somewhat off.

Suzuki volts = (GM3 * 1,84) + 0,7

PetriK · Guru

... and IAP internal sensor voltage is looking like its using this formula:

Sensor volts = (Sensor value/128 * 2,5) + 0,7

sportbikeryder · Guru

PetriK,
It looks like the GM sensor has been discontinued adn the Megasquirt guys are using the "standard" 12v solenoid as on airshifter and boost control kits. Looks like it works from 19.5-40Hz

http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/ebc-electronic-boost-control-solenoid-kit-p-285.html

stocker · Guru

it is the same stuff that i will be using on my new setup.....

stocker · Guru

PetriK wrote:

ok - lets see what is easiest to start with.

btw - received a gm 3bar sensor, partno 12223861.

Suzuki to gm 3bar relation varies by voltage.There is a 0.7V offset with suzuki sensors compared to gm 3bar and then when using divider of 1,85 we get the gm3 bar. No wonder that the fuelling using GM3 bar was somewhat off.

Suzuki volts = (GM3 * 1,84) + 0,7

this was the reason i asked what pn the 3-bar comp was based off of,also why i tested both sensors and made a spreadsheet to compare the differences...good job petrik,you will have the boosted guys flying...all with the stock ecu...