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Post Info TOPIC: A concept for boost enrichment...


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RE: A concept for boost enrichment...


I received an AEM 5 bar sensor adn it appears my engine troubles were actually an issue with the TB boot....of course I found it as i was loosening the last head stud...so I will freshen the top end while it is apart, then should be able to get it together and test the new setup.



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ok good news you found the problem, let us know how you go with the new boost fuel code ;)

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doh!

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smithabusa wrote:

doh!


 Found that that cyl did go a little lean and singe the edge of the valve pockets, even though they were prepped well. Nothing major, the rings were all still free and no pin or bearing "tightness".



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Ok today i tested the new boost fuel code on the road didn't went to well. the bike did some hick up at 7-8k don't know why but surely something is wrong. It starts fine idle fine and u can drive with no problem if you stay out of boost. My problem is that i also had the drag tools active so maybe this can also caused the hick ups. After i flashed my old bin everything went back to normal. I am going to test again without the drag tools and look what i can't find. Wish i had that log box J.

Anyone else tested on the road?

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ok interesting, your plan is good, strip it back to basics and see if we can find where the problem is.

I think we have had some successful tests done with bikes running the new code?

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Matador wrote:

Ok today i tested the new boost fuel code on the road didn't went to well. the bike did some hick up at 7-8k don't know why but surely something is wrong. It starts fine idle fine and u can drive with no problem if you stay out of boost. My problem is that i also had the drag tools active so maybe this can also caused the hick ups. After i flashed my old bin everything went back to normal. I am going to test again without the drag tools and look what i can't find. Wish i had that log box J.

Anyone else tested on the road?


 Is 7-8K your boost threshold (where the pressure starts going positive)? Or at least where it goes a few PSI (3-4) positive?

Is your map the same as it was before? Still using 3 bar sensor?

Post up what you changed with the .bin for the new setup.



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Have same problem on latest Bking Turbo , bike has hickup between 7-8K .
Have fiddled with boost threshhold , fueling , timing etc. - to no avail.
Timing retard on boost pressure does not seem to work properly either.
Checked timing on Data screen on dyno , does not retard as set.
Seems to be some kind of scaling issue , I think.
Also boost threshhold , if you set at 100 kpa = 0 kpa , Max setting is 250 , so only 1.5bar boost.

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LenTurbo wrote:
Also boost threshhold , if you set at 100 kpa = 0 kpa , Max setting is 250 , so only 1.5bar boost.

 I'm not sure what you are referring to here?  Can you explain a bit more?



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can you send me the bin file so i can take a look? EcuDataLogger@gmail.com


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John ,

Initially set boost limit / threshhold to 100  assuming it will cut ign / fuel above 1 bar boost , bike cut out as soon as manifold pressure rose above vacum.

Then realised that with GM 3 bar map sensor first 100 Kpa is negative pressure and last 200Kpa is for boost , in theory allowing you to map to 2 bar boost. The adjustment of Boost threshold is only to 250 in GM 3 bar menu , thus only allowing 1.5 bar positive pressure if enabled.

However I do have a quickshifter on the bike , this by default then activates overboost function if shifter is enabled.

One could work around this buy manually scaling map sensor as "other".

It just takes a bit more time.



-- Edited by LenTurbo on Tuesday 3rd of January 2012 01:45:08 PM

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Justin

Will bring laptop to work tomorrow and mail you the .bin file.



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Had the Bking on dyno again last night and noted the following :
At 75 - 85% throttle the bike does not stumble between 7 - 8k rpm.
Used 5th gear STP maps in all gears.
Built a new bin with old type boost fueling but had same problem.
Then made the Secondary TB's open more slowly to 9K rpm but this made the stumble worse , actually shifted it higher.
At this point the customer was getting irrate , took bike off dyno and it seemed fine to him on the road.
In my opinion he did not encounter the problem because he cannot pin the throttle quick enough , ha ha.
May be the solution is to open the Seconary TB,s quicker.
Will try this next time he brings the bike.
BTW only boosting 0.6 bar - 250 Rwhp and 198nM - the things a bloody monster around town.
Now to get that .bin mailed to Justin.


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Ok thats very interesting, so it may not be the boost fuel code or ecueditor code related! Greg has kindly sent me one of his baseline turbo bin files to do some comparisons with your bking turbo bin file, so send it through when you are ready len and i will take a look.

Cheers
-Justin.

P.S.
Thats a good wad of torque, be fun punting it through traffic :)



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jkwool wrote:


P.S.
Thats a good wad of torque, be fun punting it through traffic :)


 

Uh Oh....I believe that aroma is the sweet smell of boost in your future Justin....



-- Edited by sportbikeryder on Wednesday 4th of January 2012 11:49:59 AM

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LenTurbo wrote:

Had the Bking on dyno again last night and noted the following :
At 75 - 85% throttle the bike does not stumble between 7 - 8k rpm.
Used 5th gear STP maps in all gears.
Built a new bin with old type boost fueling but had same problem.
Then made the Secondary TB's open more slowly to 9K rpm but this made the stumble worse , actually shifted it higher.
At this point the customer was getting irrate , took bike off dyno and it seemed fine to him on the road.
In my opinion he did not encounter the problem because he cannot pin the throttle quick enough , ha ha.
May be the solution is to open the Seconary TB,s quicker.
Will try this next time he brings the bike.
BTW only boosting 0.6 bar - 250 Rwhp and 198nM - the things a bloody monster around town.
Now to get that .bin mailed to Justin.


 Once it pulls through 8k is it clean on up from there (I assume yes since it is making 250hp)



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sportbikeryder wrote:
jkwool wrote:


P.S.
Thats a good wad of torque, be fun punting it through traffic :)


 

Uh Oh....I believe that aroma is the sweet smell of boost in your future Justin....



-- Edited by sportbikeryder on Wednesday 4th of January 2012 11:49:59 AM


ha ha ha, yeah that does smell sweet :) i really should, lets face it you can never have enough grunt :)



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sportbikeryder wrote:

 Once it pulls through 8k is it clean on up from there (I assume yes since it is making 250hp)


 Yep , did 5th gear pulls holding the throttle at about 75%- 80% until it clears 8k then pinning it. Using Gt28 in 57 Trim , 95 pump gas.

 



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LenTurbo wrote:
sportbikeryder wrote:

 Once it pulls through 8k is it clean on up from there (I assume yes since it is making 250hp)


 Yep , did 5th gear pulls holding the throttle at about 75%- 80% until it clears 8k then pinning it. Using Gt28 in 57 Trim , 95 pump gas.

 


 Did this bike ever pull cleanly through that range?   (with a previous version of boost fueling or other fueling method)?

 

Is the bike making positive pressure (2-3 psi) prior to hitting 7k or is that about where the pressure starts to turn positive? 

 

Is the fuel pressure on the bike smooth through this transition?



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And on top of other considerations mentioned above,  was the a/f trace the same at 80% and 100% throttle
found on one of mine yesterday that the trace varied lots and had to add a lot of fuel in the tps so the boost fuel was accurate in all throttle positions
Justin my map will probably vary quite a bit from Lens,it was done 12 mths ago on a much earlier version of editor , busa with a gt3071 with water/air cooler , but the base setup may be more use , feel free to pass it on to Len if its any help



-- Edited by Maj750 on Wednesday 4th of January 2012 10:41:25 PM

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Couple of other things noticed while i'm using editor boostfuel
10% is not 10% , a 10% change to the maps should be close to 1 a/f change
eg: 13:1 back to `12:1, currently a 10% change is giving me around .3-.4 a/f change

Maximum of 255, when it prompts that you have exceeded 255 can one click be made clear the message for all the 255 cells and not do them individually??
don't know how others work but when i am making a map from early beginnings and have roughly calculated my fuel needs , from there if i change a range i will carry that change through the rest of the map, pre emping and reducing the number of times i need to make changes
the 255 thing makes this more difficult than it need be

Thanks guys. :)

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Maj750 wrote:

Couple of other things noticed while i'm using editor boostfuel
10% is not 10% , a 10% change to the maps should be close to 1 a/f change
eg: 13:1 back to `12:1, currently a 10% change is giving me around .3-.4 a/f change



Maj, are using the % of TPS algorithm or the +TPS algorithm?

 

While I am a big fan of a GUI and overall code cleanup, I think we may need to step back on ECU editor and take a look at the basics of the system. We need to re-look at the fundamental base fuel pulsewidth as well as identifying each modifier and how it adds (or subtracts, multiplies, divides) to/from the fuel requirement. There are quite a number of areas that can modify the fueling, and some of these areas may not be being addressed in all areas (STP fuel for example causing unexpected results in certain areas of the map).

 

I'm not really sure that the basic functions were ever discussed very much on the forum, but I am going to start combing back through.



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sportbikeryder wrote:

 Did this bike ever pull cleanly through that range?   (with a previous version of boost fueling or other fueling method)?

 

Is the bike making positive pressure (2-3 psi) prior to hitting 7k or is that about where the pressure starts to turn positive? 

 

Is the fuel pressure on the bike smooth through this transition?


 It did pull clean through on 100% throttle on previuos version just after timing issue was fixed.

Bike comes into boost already at 5000 rpm.

Running upgraded bosch pump as on forum.



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sportbikeryder wrote:

 

Maj, are using the % of TPS algorithm or the +TPS algorithm?

 


 

% of tps

 

 



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ok guys i am sure now the problem IS with the new boost code. i am flashing the bin file i first made when i finished my street turbo bike and everything works flawlessly.Then i open the file go to boost code and selecting the new style save with no changes and flash=here comes the hick up when boost goes above 5-7psi(probably goes lean but i can't confirm that).

Here is the bike with the right bin file hehe.



-- Edited by Matador on Thursday 5th of January 2012 11:44:57 AM

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Nice, std wheelbase and how much boost ?
My roadbikeruns from 4-14 psi & has a traction prob at 250kph , its about 80mm over length , think i should pull it back a bit shorter , but hell its fun :)
i have not tried the new boost fuel codes on it, finished it 12 mths ago with the then current version of editor and it works so well in all conditions even through the hills on wet and slippery roads (decompressed motors are so much easier to ride in terrible conditions) that i don't want to touch it

On the dyno yesterday gix 1000 turbo, the boost fuel stuff was real erratic, i have 2 bin files , one runs into the 9 a/f real rich killing the motor , the other is lean, yet they are virtually the same .

the lean one in the 9 psi range for example i took from numbers 70-90 in the morning running at 13.5 or so and worked my way to 127-154 and i'm still in the 12's
Beginning to think i should check my fuel pressure or injector screens (all new build including injectors , pump, lines ), and had checked and rechecked hose routing for kinks ... then thought to use the .bin that went over rich for some reason the day before and i shelved , still extremely rich , no fuel supply problem there ...

Apart from it being leaner than i would like the 01 gix with 07 ecu and loom is working extremely well, pulls cleanly , the calculated fuel tps and iap changes due to 565cc single injectors/cyl just started and ran with very little change initially and was able to inprove the tps on the dyno untill the on boost a/f was consistant at any throttle position very quickly, 10% on the fuel maps is definitely 10%

rpm limit is less than set, have it set at 13500 but hits a limiter from 11800-12400 , this may improve when i have the a/f where i want it and can give the bike longer runs , currently on the inertia dyno i am running through very quickly in 3rd , there is a possibility the rpm limit is cam pin position too, running yosh cams at 108 deg
and not fitted a offset pin yet

original k1 throttle bodies keeps the stv happy , so i think just about any stv eliminator from the gix forum would get rid of the warning on Johns bike

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Maj750 wrote:

original k1 throttle bodies keeps the stv happy , so i think just about any stv eliminator from the gix forum would get rid of the warning on Johns bike


 Good to know. Might have to try it if i ever get time to work on my bike....



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sportbikeryder wrote:

While I am a big fan of a GUI and overall code cleanup, I think we may need to step back on ECU editor and take a look at the basics of the system. We need to re-look at the fundamental base fuel pulsewidth as well as identifying each modifier and how it adds (or subtracts, multiplies, divides) to/from the fuel requirement. There are quite a number of areas that can modify the fueling, and some of these areas may not be being addressed in all areas (STP fuel for example causing unexpected results in certain areas of the map).

 

I'm not really sure that the basic functions were ever discussed very much on the forum, but I am going to start combing back through.


 I agree John, i have been looking into the low level calculations and adjusments and all the various maps that contribute to the overall fueling. there is quite a bit to get your head around... 

It would me much easier if we had the c source code :) hacking assembly is soo time consuming!



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jkwool wrote:
sportbikeryder wrote:

While I am a big fan of a GUI and overall code cleanup, I think we may need to step back on ECU editor and take a look at the basics of the system. We need to re-look at the fundamental base fuel pulsewidth as well as identifying each modifier and how it adds (or subtracts, multiplies, divides) to/from the fuel requirement. There are quite a number of areas that can modify the fueling, and some of these areas may not be being addressed in all areas (STP fuel for example causing unexpected results in certain areas of the map).

 

I'm not really sure that the basic functions were ever discussed very much on the forum, but I am going to start combing back through.


 I agree John, i have been looking into the low level calculations and adjusments and all the various maps that contribute to the overall fueling. there is quite a bit to get your head around... 

It would me much easier if we had the c source code :) hacking assembly is soo time consuming!


 I have been going through some of the early Gen1 work, but most of the theory seems to be embedded on the code or just was never really fully found.  Sepcifically I was looking for the "weight" of the various modifiers, but only see some reference to it in passing discussion.



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LenTurbo wrote:
sportbikeryder wrote:

 Once it pulls through 8k is it clean on up from there (I assume yes since it is making 250hp)


 Yep , did 5th gear pulls holding the throttle at about 75%- 80% until it clears 8k then pinning it. Using Gt28 in 57 Trim , 95 pump gas.

 


 

  Do you think that the injectors transition from bottom set to top set around that rpm area? I wonder if they overlap at some point and that there might be a correction factor related to that.

 Also, are how many injectors are you running and are they the same size if you are running 8?

 



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The injector balance could possibly have something to do with it.

Len Turbo, have you modifed the injector balance map to 50% for the boosted range?

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Yes I have set the Injector balance map to 50% but from about 6,4K and 50% Throttle. 

Running stock 8 Injectors .

When I made the STP map open the Secondaries slower ie: fully open only at 9K the problem shifted to 7 - 9K range.(Worse !!!)

I think if I make them fully open at 7K the problem might go away ?

Unfortunately the customer did not want to stick around for any longer ,at this point I had him sitting there for 6 hours.

I will try to get him back again on Saturday and try opening STP faster and post results.



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If your playing with the stv position you may have to adjust the stv fuel too
on mine i did as others advised and made all stv tables the same as 4-6, and stv fuel the same too
but prior to the change had a flat spot then surge

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I have just done a release 2.5.5.83 which provides an option to enable Extended Boost Fuel Logging. This should log an additional 10 low level variables that are used with the Boost Fuel modules.

Could some of you guys who are actively using the boost fuel do some logging for me and provide me with both your bin file and the Raw.csv file from a logging session.

I am particularily keen in logging sessions from the new version of Boost Fuel as I would like to iron out any bugs and make this the default code for boost fuel.

This should give me a greater insight into the state of the variables and boost fuel logic while the bike is operating, and should be a great tool when investigating problems with the boost fuel code.

Please send both the bin file and Raw log file/s to EcuDataLogger@gmail.com

You can find the new setting in Advanced Settings 



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Seems I have found the Issue with 7-9K hickup with the BKing.
Initially I copied 3rd gear STP maps to all gears , this cuases secondaries to open slower from 6k Rpm.
Then in 4th , 5th and 6th gears I opened the Secondaries all the way from 6K Rpm - stumble is now gone.

It was definately not a code issue , rather a "tuner" issue.
Hope this helps anybody with similar problems.


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ok cool thats good news! thanks for letting us know.

I would really appreciate it if you could do some data logging with the Extended Boost Fuel Logging enabled as above. As i dont have a turbo bike to play with this will be the only way that i can totally verify that it working exactly as planned. please send the bin file and Raw.csv log files with the "Extended Boost Fuel Logging" enabled.

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Glad you got it worked out LenTurbo. Also it is a good data point ot know the STVA can cause issues like this. Did you also modify the STP fueling?

Justin, I do believe this winter (for you in teh southern hemisphere) is the time to remedy the "not having a turbo bike problem". Nothing crazy, just a small, quick spooling turbo, similar to the early MCXpress busa setups. Almost instant spool and miles of smiles.

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sportbikeryder wrote:

Glad you got it worked out LenTurbo. Also it is a good data point ot know the STVA can cause issues like this. Did you also modify the STP fueling?

Justin, I do believe this winter (for you in teh southern hemisphere) is the time to remedy the "not having a turbo bike problem". Nothing crazy, just a small, quick spooling turbo, similar to the early MCXpress busa setups. Almost instant spool and miles of smiles.


 I concur



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Did no mods to STP fueling.
Unfortunately had to give the bike back to the customer.
Was mapping it with dyno Lambda , bike just has stock narrow band on board.

Can get him to do some road logging with laptop and "fast" interface as per PetriK.
Will try for this weekend and then forward .csv.

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LenTurbo wrote:

Did no mods to STP fueling.
Unfortunately had to give the bike back to the customer.
Was mapping it with dyno Lambda , bike just has stock narrow band on board.

Can get him to do some road logging with laptop and "fast" interface as per PetriK.
Will try for this weekend and then forward .csv.


yeah road logging with fast interface will be fine, i am not really interesting in the AFR, more the additional boost fuel specific fields logged in the latest version of ecueditor after enabling the "Extended Boost Fuel Logging" option in Advanced Settings. It will give me a good insight into the low level operation of the boost fuel code allowing me to verify the correct operation of the code, be cool to get the bin file as well so i know what values are entered into the boost fuel tables so i can make sense of the logged values ;)

Cheers

-Justin.



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smithabusa wrote:
sportbikeryder wrote:

Glad you got it worked out LenTurbo. Also it is a good data point ot know the STVA can cause issues like this. Did you also modify the STP fueling?

Justin, I do believe this winter (for you in teh southern hemisphere) is the time to remedy the "not having a turbo bike problem". Nothing crazy, just a small, quick spooling turbo, similar to the early MCXpress busa setups. Almost instant spool and miles of smiles.


 I concur


My B-King is my daily ride to get to work, maybe i need to build myself a project turbo bike for testing purposes :)



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No reason a turbo bike cannot be a daily ride
be doing a Bk down here in Vic soon, owner has has several turbo bikes and initially did not want the BK so hectic, but then road my busa and immediately said if i can get his Bk that powerfull and smooth , then yes
All due to editor :)

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what sort of ballpark money would i be looking at to turbo my bike?

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 Look at RCC's turbo's website out of Canada. If you do your own work, your looking at around $4000 it think.

 Do your self a favor, install a threaded bung in the oil pan for the oil return, and use Blue high pressure hose and AN fittings everywhere. Braided hose is better but, it is hard to bend under the tank.



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Justin,
Is the actual fuel pulsewidth being sent to teh injectors identifiable in the software? If so, logging the actual pulsewidth may help us iron out some of the mysterious behaviors that sometimes seem to pop up.


Boost...boost....boost...

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John open the log in excel, you can look at any thing the ecu sees and make tables to compare

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I have a problem with the new version it seems like it hits boost fuel cut when i am trying to pass 14psi. I have set the cut on maximum value but nothing seems to work.
Rcc fuel rail and 850cc injectors 044 bosch 1:1 regulator and 44 tial wastegate the turbo is a gt 2871. I have run that before with no problems then updated with new version 2.5.101 and this problem popped out.

I am using the legacy version and i have checked everything else, i really can't find anything else besides a code problem



-- Edited by Matador on Tuesday 29th of May 2012 07:51:05 AM

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There have been no changes to the boost fuel section of code for some time, You can look at the change logs in butbucket to review what has changed when https://bitbucket.org/ecueditor/ecueditor/changesets

I think there may still be some issues with how the extended boost fuel code is working, i am working with Richard from RCC Turbos to work through these issues. For now safest bet is to use the orginal version of the boost fuel code.



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Provided my bike lives trough the weekend, I hope to get it back on the dyno in the coming weeks to smooth it out a bit and may look into this as well.

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I have a couple tuned with the extended code, seems to be pretty good now, but i see Richard mention the boost may be more than shows, sort of explains some high hp figures seen on both my dyno and others
one i am tuning tomorrow has a external logger and will also use the editor logger and see how the boost levels look

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