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Post Info TOPIC: Nitrouscontrol module for gen2


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Nitrouscontrol module for gen2


Any comments to this initial concept description are welcome...

Nitrous control concept desciption: When pressing the DSM1 button nitrous activated and extra fuel provided to the engine. This incorporates a progressive nitrous controller using PAIR output to drive a relay that sends signal to the nitrous solenoid. Enrichment to fuelpulse happens using ECUs internal Yoshbox calculation routine, no additional enrichment circuits needed. For each gear a maximum solenoid duty cycle is defined. The ramp up calculations starts when reaching 100% TPS. Possibility to set up an initial delay before additional fuel is delivered due to the delay before nitrous is travelling from solenoid to engine.

Internal preparations in ecueditor to load the program
1. disable dsm1
- change the instructions to NOP in the programming code at around 0001DCD4 to disable dsm1 reading
2. disable pair
- disable pair as per settings
- just for safety change any output to 0x800701 (Port1_bit5pair) to an unused ramvar
3. set jumps to nitrouscontrol alike to boostfuel
4. Load the nitrouscontrol module to the programming memory

Operating logic for nitrouscontrol module
- set operatingwindow active if dsm1 depressed, rpm>=8000, TPS>=100%, no FI light, no Fuelcut active, no rpm active
- set nitrous solenoid max duty cycle % differently for each gear
- calculate nitrous ramp up % from reaching 100% TPS. Rampup is calculated as % of total ramp up time. E.g. 3s elapsed from 6s rampup time then 50% rampup %.
- if rampup % > gear based max duty cycle % then use gear based max duty cycle %
- set fuel enrichment as % to calculated base fuelpulse * solenoid dyty cycle % * ramp up %
- set up a delay for enrichment activation from nitrous solenoid becoming active
- if operatingwindow active then enrichment active and duty cycle active



-- Edited by PetriK on Sunday 17th of January 2010 04:27:17 PM

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Sounds like a very nice plan PetriK. The time to ramp up with a maximum per gear is a great feature and should allow for some very fine tuning on the nitrous delivery.

Does teh pair output handle enough current to be used as is or will there need to be a solid state relay installed?

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very nice.....max per gear will definately help "short" wheelbase bikes....biggrin

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wow cool petrik

john i am sure you are going to need a mosfet or relay, can't imagine that circuit can support a NOS solenoid, maybe..maybe... a boost control solenoid, but even then unless you wanna send me an ecu to test its current capacity I think ill wire my stuff to a circuit LOL

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Petrik,

are you still considering closed loop control? Or is the consensus that the nitrous thermic reactions in the combustion chamber are too unpredictable and extra fuel should be added regardless? I can't help but think that the potential for much greater hp is available if we could fine tune using EE2 and let the ECU manage the fueling and ignition timing using closed loop with a decent wideband sensor.

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Very...Very Nice Work Petrik!! smile I cant wait to start testing....I have everything installed(N2O Hardware wise, have Noid, Spray Bar, Bottle, Ect), I just been waiting on this to come. biggrin I would have to agree with Greg, Def would need a Relay in the Circuit. N2O Noidz(all the ones i've used) draw a lot of amperage, and just for the Peace of Mind alone it would be worth it(JMHO). Would not be hard at all to wire a 5 pole Bosh relay in the Pair Circuit.  
Thanks again Petrik for ANOTHER Awesome feature!!! If theres anything at ALL I can do to Help just say the Word. I have a Data logger on my Busa, so I could def post AFR, RPM, and TPS info! wink


-- Edited by ToXSicK RoCKeT on Tuesday 19th of January 2010 01:15:44 PM

-- Edited by ToXSicK RoCKeT on Tuesday 19th of January 2010 01:18:16 PM

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stocker wrote:

very nice.....max per gear will definately help "short" wheelbase bikes....biggrin




I assume/Hope this will be able to be fully adjusted by the end user?

ie; some may want 100% in 1st & 2nd gear and so forth(those running small kits), while others may want 25%? Just a thought....



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Yes, needs to be user adjustable.

I will propably implement this in two stages. First just push button activation of fuel and pair connected nitrous solenoid and then add more advanced features.

Key difference to previous thinking is that with this nitrous module we really will be only defining the "nitrous jet size" and calculate fuel from that where as in gen1 and in already available gen2 concept we add fuel to the MS1 map. In practise this module means that we can spare the MS0 vs MS1 maps for e.g. different fuels.



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PetriK wrote:

Yes, needs to be user adjustable.

I will propably implement this in two stages. First just push button activation of fuel and pair connected nitrous solenoid and then add more advanced features.

Key difference to previous thinking is that with this nitrous module we really will be only defining the "nitrous jet size" and calculate fuel from that where as in gen1 and in already available gen2 concept we add fuel to the MS1 map. In practise this module means that we can spare the MS0 vs MS1 maps for e.g. different fuels.




NICE....That would leave A LOT of room for Tweeking & Tuning.....I Likey! biggrin



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This does seem to be the "killer Ap" for those people holding out on Flashing.

Gear based N2O controllers are many hundreds of dollars, and it would appear they could be made obsolete. I have a time based controller that progressively ramps (dual ramp) from the time that the WOT sensor is activated, but the technique is hightly flawed. Based on track conditions, etc, I can't always get WOT instantly, so the time-based ramping of the nitrous isn't alway in sync with the RPM-based fuel map. Also, I'm always running stinking rich in second gear because the nitrous is still ramping into third. I have been using the gear based fuel trim that is available with the PCIII w/ USB hub to lean out first and second gear for this.

This is definitly a much better method for mapping. I don't know how you plan on arranging the GUI, but I would think you would need a nitrous activation map for each gear, and at the top of each RPM collum would be an entry for the solenoid duty cycle. The nitrous activation "delay" feature is very important. My system currently has a 180 mS delay, and without it you get a horrible bog due to the brief overly rich condition. Spray bars need less delay than box fogging. It may also be nice to adjust the throttle activation point to some value between 85% and 100%.

Couple of additional points: If you are in 3rd gear at 100% duty cycle and she starts to lift and you have to pedal the throttle, you need to consider what you whant to happen when you go back to WOT. Do you whant to go right back to 100% DC. I would, but there are differing opinions on this.

Finally, most solenoids can't be activated reliably at less than 40 to 50% duty cycle unless you really slow down the PWM frequency. If you set the controller lower than that, the results are unpredicable, and if you slow the frequency the results are disasterous for people using spray bars. Lets say I want an 80 HP shot in 3rd, but can only handle a 20 shot in 1st. The challenge is that with only a single stage of nitrous, I can't go as small as I need in 1st (only 25% DC) or as big as I want in 3rd. I suppose its too much to ask for, but controlling PWM frequency would be important (slower for air box injection, faster for spray bars), and a second stage activation would be the next logical thing needed.

Great idea Petrik. Sorry for the core dump.

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i could be wrong, but does'nt ecueditor use the same maps fpor all gears..??..no gear based mapping........if it could be done if time based could be "picked up" where it left off if you lift, just like the nos mini does....and if it is going to wheelstand..ride it out or shift....

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stocker wrote:

i could be wrong, but does'nt ecueditor use the same maps fpor all gears..??..no gear based mapping........if it could be done if time based could be "picked up" where it left off if you lift, just like the nos mini does....and if it is going to wheelstand..ride it out or shift....




Looks like Petrik might have changed all that in the last update(all gear mapping being  the same)?? Not sure about Timing part of it, but looks like we can now change/compensate for Ram-Air in different gear(s). smile



-- Edited by ToXSicK RoCKeT on Tuesday 19th of January 2010 10:20:12 PM

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i have been only using the "stable" version on the ama ready bikes.....ram air compensation is what it is...ram air comp, i really don't know what "compensation" is involved with ram comp..another words, what algorithim does it follow..?

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i have been using romraider on another bike that does have "gear based fuel,AND ign mapping...on a gen2....

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stocker wrote:

i have been only using the "stable" version on the ama ready bikes.....ram air compensation is what it is...ram air comp, i really don't know what "compensation" is involved with ram comp..another words, what algorithim does it follow..?



Marc,
     I believe it just adds fuel based on engine rpm and gear selection (calculated vehicle speed). The factory has determined the additional air density caused by the ram air at a given speed and added a multiplier to accommodate the increase. I suppose the pressure sensors aren't sensitive enough to pick up the ram air pressurization. May be of less benefit for a modified air intake system or engine unless extensive data monitoring can be done to see how it impacts the modified engine.

 



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"calculated" speed is what scares me.....bsfc does vary with load...even though engine pumping and volumetric efecienty does not change...we use air vanes on car engines on a dynojet engine dyno...ram air is a caculated forced situation, but does it always happen the same way....in other words does all you passes end up the same...no...short shifting, missed shifts ect,,,how do you calculate for the un-forseables of drag racing..???.. slipping clutch, wheelspin,wheelies.short shifting...good traction....??...please someone help me on this one...

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and john has touched on air "density" it is constantly changing...who has a weather station at the track....we cahange jets on "big" nitrous carb motors when needed...so the factory fi will compensate for me when it changes..??

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Without knowing how to look at the control loops, and going out on a limb, the ram air sompensation may be a percentage of the fuel calculation rather than an absolute pulsewidth addition. His would be compensated for witht eh SAP and also with the IAT, tps, coolant temp, etc.

I would think you would need very sensitive data collection and conrolled conditions to tune the ram air compensation maps in an educated manner rather than just adjusting the "calculated vehicle speed" due to gearing and tire change such as the gearing selection for GEN1 in ecu Editor.

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sportbikeryder wrote:

Without knowing how to look at the control loops, and going out on a limb, the ram air sompensation may be a percentage of the fuel calculation rather than an absolute pulsewidth addition. His would be compensated for witht eh SAP and also with the IAT, tps, coolant temp, etc.

I would think you would need very sensitive data collection and conrolled conditions to tune the ram air compensation maps in an educated manner rather than just adjusting the "calculated vehicle speed" due to gearing and tire change such as the gearing selection for GEN1 in ecu Editor.



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stocker wrote:

i have been only using the "stable" version on the ama ready bikes.....ram air compensation is what it is...ram air comp, i really don't know what "compensation" is involved with ram comp..another words, what algorithim does it follow..?




Marc, not sure I know the answer to your question, "what algorithm does it follow"? The process on how the code is written is beyond me? confuse However I do know that some people on here where/are fighting AFR target(s) from one Gear to the Next at the same RPM. I believe that is why some have asked for Ram Air Compensation??This is of course "if" I understand this all correctly....still trying to get the hang of everything no and NOT having any Clue on the Software side of things makes it even more Frustrating! evileye



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phil,have you ever "rode" out a certian gear due to different conditions, say strung out 2nd gear.....and short shifted 3rd..??..or short shifted 2nd and strung out 3rd..?? does "ram air" pressure and or speed come into play..??? how do you calculate for different speeds, and pressures "at " any given speeds...aren't they always changing....?

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stocker wrote:

phil,have you ever "rode" out a certian gear due to different conditions, say strung out 2nd gear.....and short shifted 3rd..??..or short shifted 2nd and strung out 3rd..?? does "ram air" pressure and or speed come into play..??? how do you calculate for different speeds, and pressures "at " any given speeds...aren't they always changing....?




Ok I gotcha...... But I think what some are saying is that on Perfect runs(in theory anyways), Take two Passes where everything went as Planned, Confirming everything went right on there Data logger, some are getting a Lean or Rich condition from one gear to the next and want to try and tune it out? I would assume(even though I hate to do that)"Ram-Air Mapping" is just a test start???? Now I personally don't think I would ever mess with it.... I would MUCH rather have the option to change timing from gear to gear. I believe theres a lot to be had by taking just a few degree's out on the Big end!(had some success doing this in my Car days...as much as a couple .10's wink

Just my take on this anyways..........



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now you may be thinking on the same page as me....smile

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there is "bigger" fish in the sea to catch before we concentrate "our " efforts on the small ones......smile

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stocker wrote:

there is "bigger" fish in the sea to catch before we concentrate "our " efforts on the small ones......smile




biggrin



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now back to a nitrous controller.....nos recommends that there solonoids be "set to 15 hz" ...some say that some solonoids do not operate at "lower" megahertz" comfortably.....so how do we handle this issue.....everyone uses different solonoids, so where do we start with control....

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we do know that a relay or a mosfet will be needed to "drive" the solonoid or solonids depending in which way you decide to run your system, wet, or dry...but is there going to be a "adjustable" amount of hz control...?...now what is controling the pwm,and can we alter it...??

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also, different bottle pressures or "line" pressure has different influnces on how "fast" the solonoid reacts, also amperage and line sizes,and or lengths differ...including heat soak in the system, in which the flow rate can fluctuate...can we standardize these "variables"....or at least some.....

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stocker wrote:

also, different bottle pressures or "line" pressure has different influnces on how "fast" the solonoid reacts, also amperage and line sizes,and or lengths differ...including heat soak in the system, in which the flow rate can fluctuate...can we standardize these "variables"....or at least some.....




I really dont think theres much we can do on these things(way too many variables)?? I think these things are just going to affect how well each kit works. People are just going to have to tune there own kit and figure out what works best with there particular set up. JMO



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control is the biggest advantage that we can have.......which is the best in any given situation....i think that time based, with the ability to adjust hz will be the winner......no matter what gear we are in....that is the variable...confuse

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delay in enrichment is also a variable,for those who have a purge system, will have liquid nos delivered to the nozzles before the onnes without...??

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will the liquid nos get there the process of enchroment of the fuel???

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thank you petrik for letting "us" be involved with the discussion....

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Good discussion and certainly points out some of the issues about:
- Time based ramp up has its flaws in a situation where we need to pull back from 100% throttle. The methods to do that needs to be clarified.
- Can look into the ramair compensation algorithm, thats easy - recall the full ecu algorithm being very close to gen1 which was explained some 2years back.
- Have been thinking to add bottle pressure, i.e. bottle temperature information into the equation. Its the starting pressure but also compensating for bottle getting colder during the further down in the run.
- Both PWM and Frequency are easily controllable.

This kind of discussion and throwing the ideas in the air is really good, helps putting everyone on the same page as well as steering the whole process into same direction.



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Petrik
I think using the Ram Air Mapping it would be possible to Fine tune the fueling per gear ?
ie - this doubles as "trim per gear"

PWM and Hz control is more than adequate to control nitrous volumes , the question is do you put in an adjustable / map-able "delay" for different delivery systems.
I use a pressure regulator on my bike for consistency , will pressure control not take to long to react ? Will you not need a very potent bottle heater ?

Can the "ramp up" not be linked tp TPS ? Will this not make it easier ?
Just a thought.

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Hi Petrik, just wondering how the Nitrous Programing/Feature is coming? biggrin I know your a VERY BUSY Man and I'm not trying to be Pushy AT ALL.....Just very excited. smile Noticed theres a tab in EE2 now for N2O, but doesn't appear to do anything yet, is that just a starting point?? 
Again Petrik, Thanks for EVERYTHING You do For us Go-Fast junkies! wink
PLEASE....."PLEASE", if theres ANYTHING at all I can do to Help you or the Cause, just say the Word my Brother! I know I'm NOT a Program Guru, but maybe there's something I might be good for(lol)? Thanks,
Phil.


-- Edited by ToXSicK RoCKeT on Friday 22nd of January 2010 07:37:41 PM

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I think to have NOS active with anything less than 100 % throttle is heading for bad effect. I certianly would not spray at anything under 100 % throttle as it's breaking the basic rule of NOS activation. Agree with stocker that people use so many parameters (bottle pressures etc) that are outside the recommended parameters that Petri to me you can really only set it up for basic operation following the golden rules of NOS (ie Bottle pressure, 100 % throttle etc) and let those that deviate from the basics sort it.
No matter what control one has over the NOS system. the single factor with the most effect A/F is bottle pressure and no matter what you set settings to be they will only be relevent to the bottle pressure at the time of setting
. Always amazed at how many running NOS with no bottle pressure gauge as it makes setting up basically a waste of time for one can never know at what pressure those settings were correct, for they are only correct at the pressure set at disbelief
So ................... to me as long as one can have control of the basics, activation point and 100 % throttle than the rest should be easily sorted
Just my 2 cents

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Pitstop wrote:


 Always amazed at how many running NOS with no bottle pressure gauge as it makes setting up basically a waste of time for one can never know at what pressure those settings were correct, for they are only correct at the pressure set at disbelief

While I do agree that a bottle pressure gauge should be used (and even better, a pressure regulator), I have recently seen only a 3 hp loss on a dyno (291 down to 288) from mid 13's AFR down to 11.8-ish AFR.

Just another data point, doesn't provide much insight on nitrous algorithms.....



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Agree with Pitstop 100% TPS and activation point is the way to go.

simple is always the BEST.

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Ok, thanks for the feedback !

Looks like the first test version will be a gear based duty cycle controlled nitrous with TPS=100% and RPM window activation using PAIR as the output port for nitrous solenoid relay. Nitrous solenoid MUST NOT BE CONNECTED DIRECTLY to ecu, it always needs a relay or a powertransistor there.

if (ECU_RPM > minrpm)
if (ECU_RPM < maxrpm)
if (ECU_TPS > mintps)

Will do some preliminary concept development and testing today, but as I am really busy for the coming 1-2 weeks so would not expect much progress for end user version until early-mid february.



-- Edited by PetriK on Saturday 23rd of January 2010 10:49:32 AM

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OK, the testversion of nitrouscontrol module is out now. Currently its still lacking for user interface to set up the following, but these will be user adjustable:
- setting a fixed mode A as mode buttons will be used for something else...
- mininum activation RPM
- maximum activation RPM
- minimum activation TPS (is fixed to 95% and is user adjustable only for special cases)
- nitrous solenoid duty cycle per gear
- fuel add per gear

Currently the enrichment runs pig rich and solenoid activation starts from 40% 2nd gear up to 100% 6th gear, but these are just a baseline for testing to get something real out of this.

Two questions:
1) Any recommendation for jet# that we should base the calculations ?
2) Any recommendation for max duty cycle per gear ?

To proceed this I really need somekind of programming information from setting up information for a gear based or time control based fuel computer ...

btw.
-The disable PAIR needs to be set currently by the user, will propably update that to be something to be set up automatically
-I think there is a need for purge button operation too, i.e. if engine is not running the duty cycle could be e.g. 50% just to test that everything works.






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One more build, with the purge feature for testing the nitrous line.

If GEAR 1-6 is on
If ENGINE RPM = 0
if TPS > 95%
If DSM1 is depressed
... then the solenoid (Pair output) will be activated for the given duty cycle of that gear. Please note that gear 1 duty cycle is by default 0, i.e. gear 1 on will not activate the output - unless there is some ripple voltage which needs to be figured out when testing and fixed later on.

We know from the past that how much fuel needs to be added for each nitrous #jet size, but what I do not know is that what nitrous jet size does 50% duty cycle represent if e.g. jet size is #40. It is possible that the actual gas flow is not 50%, but could be e.g. 25% or 75% with that duty cycle depending on how fast the solenoid is to open and close. There is propably a solenoid opening delay like there is with injectors which needs to be taken into calculation and which we need to figure out. This could be calculated e.g. from measuring how long time does it take for a bottle to empty with 50% duty cycle (gear2) and 100% duty cycle (gear6).

So, let me repeat these two questions that are important to understand and add one more important question:
1) Any recommendation for jet# that we should base the calculations ?
2) Any recommendation for max duty cycle per gear ?
3) How long time does it take for a bottle to get empty with 100% duty cycle compared to 50% duty cycle for any given jet size.

To proceed this I really need somekind of programming information from setting up information for a gear based or time control based fuel computer or empirical data with various duty cycle flow information comparisons.





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Great work Petrik! I'm not sure what everyone else thinks, But seeings how the Gen2 Engine in stock form(do to valve train limitations)is really limited to a 40hp Kit. I think this is the "Target" Number(40hp) we could/should work from(anything above this is asking for trouble without engine work)?? Heres the Problem though.....
To Nail down one Jet# size is pretty hard to do, do to different variations in  the methods of spraying the motor. ie, Fogging the Air box vs Using a Spray Bar, one may be using a 1000psi, 900psi, or 600psi for bottle pressure?? All these would impact what jet size being used for the same 40hp kit. I myself am going to use a N2O Regulator and regulate my bottle PSI to 600psi(this is do to the rapid drop in bottle psi in a 2-2.5lb bottle(s) @ 900-1000psi). Using the 600psi will help keep/maintain the same bottle psi throughout the entire Run(s) and will ease tuning the fuel side and keep these more consistent. This would cause me to have to use a Lager Jet size to achieve a Specific HP than someone running 1000psi. I believe "Draco" also does his Kit the same way with GREAT Success! wink
As far as the Max duty cycles per gear.......
I really would like to see/be able to run a 100% in ALL Gear(s)...at least have the option to do so? Some people may only run a 20hp kit and may want 100% of the Power from second gear on?? Maybe there could be an option to not have a "Controller" on at all while making a run, or just a way to set all duty cycles to 100% or something??
Just my .02....... Keep up the AWESOME work Petrik..THANK YOU!


-- Edited by ToXSicK RoCKeT on Saturday 23rd of January 2010 02:29:33 PM

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1. so are you (petrik) needing a flow rate to be able to come up with fuel enrichment requirements.
2. 100% max is great, but are you saying that the algrothin will start back from it's beginning % ??...in other words 20% start to 100% per gear..??
3. great work so far.......

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sa far as a timed based controller, i had my nos controller set to 15hz all the time and started at 20% duty with a 1 sec delay from 100% tps signal with a 3.5 sec build time to 100% duty cycle......by then my bike was settled and in 3rd gear.....

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Yes, I need nitrous flow rate vs duty cycle information to get the fuel adjustments calculated - exactly that.

Maybe the screenshot below clarifies what is ready at this moment for testing. First row is calculated duty cycle (fixed duty per gear), second row is fuel add (fixed fuel add per gear) - not adjusted to anything particular unit yet. This is for start to test the concept, final could be more enhanced. E.g. time based algorithms etc. - but lets first get the basics to work.

PAIR output active RPM 8000-11000, TPS>95% -> gear 1-6 fuel add and pair output duty cycle adjustable as per table below.

Solenoid purge only, RPM 0, TPS>95% -> gear 1-6 pair output duty only active.

nitrouscontrol.jpg



-- Edited by PetriK on Saturday 23rd of January 2010 03:03:06 PM

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stocker wrote:

sa far as a timed based controller, i had my nos controller set to 15hz all the time and started at 20% duty with a 1 sec delay from 100% tps signal with a 3.5 sec build time to 100% duty cycle......by then my bike was settled and in 3rd gear.....




Marc, was this a Wet or Dry kit? How Much HP are you Ramping in?



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maybe we could ask greg if he can whip up some kind of relay setup for the people that want to test, that will plug into the pair connector...... i will test soon already have 400mi on bike and all the parts to nos and pipe to the suspension is sitting here ready to go on...

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ToXSicK RoCKeT wrote:

stocker wrote:

sa far as a timed based controller, i had my nos controller set to 15hz all the time and started at 20% duty with a 1 sec delay from 100% tps signal with a 3.5 sec build time to 100% duty cycle......by then my bike was settled and in 3rd gear.....




Marc, was this a Wet or Dry kit? How Much HP are you Ramping in?



dry kit fogging the box on a gen1 using 2-30 jets...around 70 hp....1000psi bottle pressure controlled by a pressure pro regulator....

 



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stocker wrote:

maybe we could ask greg if he can whip up some kind of relay setup for the people that want to test, that will plug into the pair connector...... i will test soon already have 400mi on bike and all the parts to nos and pipe to the suspension is sitting here ready to go on...




X2.... That would be Great! I am ready to Test as well. smile



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