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Post Info TOPIC: Nitrouscontrol module for gen2


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RE: Nitrouscontrol module for gen2


Millimetres

1mm = 0.03936 inch

Approx Power increase with 800 psi Nitrous Oxide pressure

Fuel Jet  (mm)
for a 3 BAR or 45 psi (above manifold) fuel injected

Fuel Jet (mm) for a Separate fuel pump & regulator set to 10 psi pressure

Fuel Jet (mm) for a fuel pump & regulator that also feeds carburettors at 3 psi

Motorcycles that use gravity feed from tank

No Fuel pump needed

Check! FLOW RATE - Disconnect the pipe from the injector, or from the distribution block (if used) and time how long it takes to fill a 1 Pint container with fuel. With Nitrous Bottle disconnected, and the engine is running, and the Fuel Solenoid energised. (+ / - 5%)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

      0.30

6.3 bhp

Too small for reliability & practicality

0.30

0.40

-

    1 pint fuel delivered 1031 seconds

      0.35

8.6 bhp

0.35

0.50

-

  1 pint fuel delivered 755 seconds

      0.40

11.2 bhp

0.40

0.55

-

  1 pint fuel delivered 580 seconds

      0.45

14.2 bhp

  0.300

0.45

0.60

-

  1 pint fuel delivered 457 seconds

      0.50

17.5 bhp

  0.325

0.50

0.70

-

  1 pint fuel delivered 317 seconds

      0.55

21.2 bhp

  0.350

0.55

0.75

-

  1 pint fuel delivered 309 seconds

      0.60

25.2 bhp

  0.400

0.60

0.80

*1.50

  1 pint fuel delivered 260 seconds

      0.65

29.5 bhp

  0.450

0.65

0.90

*1.70

  1 pint fuel delivered 216 seconds

      0.70

34.3 bhp

  0.475

0.70

0.95

*1.90

  1 pint fuel delivered 191 seconds

      0.75

39.4 bhp

  0.500

0.75

1.00

*2.10

  1 pint fuel delivered 162 seconds

      0.80

44.8 bhp

  0.525

0.80

1.10

*2.10 / no jet

  1 pint fuel delivered 144 seconds

      0.85

50.6 bhp

  0.550

0.85

1.15


For 40 bhp upwards a

pump is needed so follow RED jet sizing options

Or a pipe from a larger size fuel solenoid

to distribution block with a bigger internal bore than 2.5mm could be used instead

  1 pint fuel delivered 130 seconds

      0.90

56.7 bhp

  0.600

0.90

1.20

  1 pint fuel delivered 114 seconds

      0.95

63.2 bhp

  0.625

0.95

1.30

  1 pint fuel delivered 103 seconds

      1.00

70.0 bhp

  0.675

1.00

1.35

1 pint fuel delivered 92 seconds

      1.05

77.1 bhp

  0.700

1.05

1.40

1 pint fuel delivered 84 seconds

      1.10

84.7 bhp

  0.725

1.10

1.50

1 pint fuel delivered 77 seconds

      1.15

92.5 bhp

  0.775

1.15

1.55

1 pint fuel delivered 71 seconds

      1.20

100.2 bhp

  0.800

1.20

1.60

1 pint fuel delivered 65 seconds



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stocker wrote:

 

ToXSicK RoCKeT wrote:

 

stocker wrote:

sa far as a timed based controller, i had my nos controller set to 15hz all the time and started at 20% duty with a 1 sec delay from 100% tps signal with a 3.5 sec build time to 100% duty cycle......by then my bike was settled and in 3rd gear.....




Marc, was this a Wet or Dry kit? How Much HP are you Ramping in?



dry kit fogging the box on a gen1 using 2-30 jets...around 70 hp....1000psi bottle pressure controlled by a pressure pro regulator....

 

 



"70HP".......thats what I'm talking about, do you think you will need this same Controller rate, ramp, ect with your Gen2 Kit??? Unless you/people are going to dive into the Head(up-grade valve train), 40..."MAYBE" 50hp(if you want to cross your fingers lol)will be about the MAX on a Gen2. 

 



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Nitrous Jet Size
 in
Millimeters

 Extra
Horsepower
Gain
0.25mm=4.30 bhp
0.30mm=6.30 bhp
0.35mm=8.75 bhp
0.40mm=11.20 bhp
0.45mm=14.17 bhp
0.50mm=

17.50 bhp

0.55mm=21.17 bhp
0.60mm=25.20 bhp *
0.65mm=29.57 bhp
0.70mm=34.30 bhp
0.75mm=39.37 bhp **
0.80mm=44.80 bhp ***
0.90mm=56.00 bhp
1.00mm=70.00 bhp
1.10mm=84.70 bhp
1.20mm=100.8 bhp


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Thanks !

Any information of nitrous flow for various nitrous solenoid duty cycle settings ?

E.g. how close is nitrous jet #40 compared to nitrous jet #60 with 50% nitrous duty cycle ?

I am not sure if the nitrous duty cycle is linear to nitrous flow, that is why trying to find information of this...



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petrik hope these figures will help....these are only suggestions...

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GREAT N2O CHART MARC!! Bravo!!!! wink Thanks for Posting. smile

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petrik i dont think that duty cycle is linear due to the variables, except if the systen is tested back to back..i.e # 40 jet is installed and flow is measured, then #60 jet is installed and measured...both at 50% duty...that test will tell us if there is a difference. The flow will be greater due to the larger office size on the 60.

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So if I make up 2 plug and play NOS harnesses for gen 2 who can put them to use soon?  And if so where would you mount the NOS solenoid so i know where to make connections, and where would you mount a toggle switch?

or did i read its going to be activated only by the push of the selector button?

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greg, i believe that petrik will be activating it by the dsm switch for now..i will be ready to test next week...need a few more mile on the new bike....as for solenoid, can you provide the mating connector for the beta testers to mount it where they want?

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You read it correctly, DSM button is the activation. That will turn pair on/off and deliver fuel automatically. No MS01 wire is needed.

gen2nitrouscontrolwiring.jpg

nitrouscontrol.jpg



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yes i will supply mating connector, but i like nice and clean harnesses, so tell me where solenoid will be placed approximately and ill make sure my 2 pin connector reaches there, that way solenoid only need a few inches of wiring before the connector to keep it all pretty.  on the gen 1 harness its setup to go to the tail section.  www.boostbysmith.com/ecunos.html

Just trying to see if any of the code is active yet, i can make up one or two this weekend but would like to see it cycle on my bike to make sure all is good etc prior to shipping.  if i dont have to do a toggle switch makes it nice as well.

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smithabusa wrote:

yes i will supply mating connector, but i like nice and clean harnesses, so tell me where solenoid will be placed approximately and ill make sure my 2 pin connector reaches there, that way solenoid only need a few inches of wiring before the connector to keep it all pretty.  on the gen 1 harness its setup to go to the tail section.  www.boostbysmith.com/ecunos.html

Just trying to see if any of the code is active yet, i can make up one or two this weekend but would like to see it cycle on my bike to make sure all is good etc prior to shipping.  if i dont have to do a toggle switch makes it nice as well.



thats fine.....let me know when ready...i will pp you....will you be able to throw the yoshbox female ends in with it for the 6 harnesses that you sent me..(the ones with the males)..i can shoot you a picture...?

 



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not sure on specs for a FAST relay, but the ones I have are typical 5 pin bosch style 30amp, have used them before when testing my original 2 step rev limiter and they pulsed fast enough for a 2 step, so I am thinking they should be good.

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oh you didn't say it was 6 harnesses, i sent you 4 pins earlier this week, didn't realize i sent you that many

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We will see how this operates when starting to test. Alternatively a transistor driver would do it for sure. The other end of pair goes to +12V so its a grounding the green wire. Anyway we will find for sure when starting the testing - relay speed will be possibly the limiting factor and a fault point over the time when running constantly so a power transistor would be preferred. Same schematic will work with the duty cycle control for turbos when we get there.



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thats cool greg.....smile....they were for the shop bikes...i have been bench flashing them using the bench setup you sent me...

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wohoo check it :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRuZ_og2w-U



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smithabusa wrote:

So if I make up 2 plug and play NOS harnesses for gen 2 who can put them to use soon?  And if so where would you mount the NOS solenoid so i know where to make connections, and where would you mount a toggle switch?

or did i read its going to be activated only by the push of the selector button?




I will put one to use Greg! biggrin I'm trying to figure out how to post Pics on here, But my Noid is Mounted under the Tank, on the Frame, same spot as the EVAP Valve is Located. Let me know How much and I will Paypal you the $$$. smile



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photobucket.com then just post the [img] link you see

shoot me a pic and measurement from pair connector to your solenoid

no charge on 1st tester harnesses guys

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damm your quick.........i want one please......i will pp if needed..biggrin

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24" will do or whatever you want......

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how far from pair connector should relay be located?  Relay has a mounting tab it could be bolts to something

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Ok, Here it is Greg....I think about 12" will do? Pay no attention to the Fuel Noid...at one time I was going to do a Wet Kit. 




-- Edited by ToXSicK RoCKeT on Saturday 23rd of January 2010 06:33:58 PM

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24" is good for me....plenty of options to mount....biggrin

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having a hard time telling, is it behind the air box over breather cover or something?  Where do you want the relay? 

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pretty sure i dont have any fuse holders will have to purchse some, you guys will most likely have to supply the fuse, not sure i have any of those either, maybe LOL

so i need pair valve to relay and pair valve to solenoid connector

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Heres another angle. 



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Some more literature research on nitrous duty cycle controllers...

From reading some articles I am getting an impression that ss we are controlling nitrous as well as fuel in liquid form, it should mean that duty cycle affects both flows with same linear rate.

What I understad is that the jet should be as close to nitrous solenoid as possible. This means that nitrous systems where the jet is integrated to solenoid and then an small black or blue hose to the airbox should work best with duty cycled controller. If a nitrous bar with jets at the airbox far away from the solenoid is used then the line between solenoid and jet acts as a pressure reserve and the duty cycle control will not work. This may also be the reason why some riders have never been able to get the progressive systems to work. So its no nitrous bar folks, just the thin black line to the airbox.
http://www.nitrous.info/nos-wiring-pulse-controller-electrical.htm

Some systems use two or more solenoids for safety.
http://www.jegs.com/InstallationInstructions/700/741/741-15835B.pdf

One of the earliest systems is described here.
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5444628.pdf

Nx has a nice controller with a lot of good features, very much alike what has been discussed and planner here before reading this.
http://www.nitrousexpress.com/Instructions/maximizer_2.pdf



-- Edited by PetriK on Saturday 23rd of January 2010 09:04:11 PM

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This is how I believe the fuel enrichment could work. Well the current enrichment already works, but the baseline is not calculated correctly - I believe the current table will be way too rich for any decent jet sizes as it almost double she fuel at the high end. Anyway an user can already to tune the fuel down without any problems to test these adjustments.

At 100% duty the nitrous jet size will define the needed fuel add according to the table below, plus a couple of points to bring the AFR to a safe 11.5 level.

Jet #14 6hp -> Fuel +3%
Jet #16 9hp -> Fuel +3%
Jet #18 12hp -> Fuel +5%
Jet #20 15hp -> Fuel +5%
Jet #22 17hp -> Fuel +8%
Jet #24 20hp -> Fuel +8%
Jet #26 25hp -> Fuel +10%
Jet #28 30hp -> Fuel +10%
Jet #30 34hp -> Fuel +12%
Jet #32 38hp -> Fuel +12%
Jet #34 40hp -> Fuel +15%
Jet #36 45hp -> Fuel +15%
Jet #38 50hp -> Fuel +17%
Jet #40 55hp -> Fuel +20%
Jet #42 65hp -> Fuel +22%

At some point the duty cycle will be too low to anymore open the nitrous jet, below that point e.g. 25% duty cycle the fuel add will be +0% as no nitrous is flowing. This is because the time needed to open the nitrous solenoid takes longer time than what the duty cycle is on. With fuel control we do not have this minimum opening time issue as we are running the injectors with much higher frequency and every % add to the fuelpulse happens more or less in real time.

In between these two points, 25%-100% nitrous, 0%-100% fuel the relationship of fuel add and nitrous add is more or less linear as both are flowing in liquid form.


-- Edited by PetriK on Saturday 23rd of January 2010 09:52:08 PM

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cool, from what i have heard a lot of nos solenoids have a hard time below 40-50% duty cycle.  but i am a turbo guy, dont know or study up much on nitrous

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So its no nitrous bar folks, just the thin black line to the airbox.

Great Work Petrik! But why No Spray bars? confuse If its a matter of Pulse Rate do to Jetting, one could still install N20 Jet @ Noid, then Plumb to Spray Bar?? The Spray Bar I am currently running is Made by Gixx1300R(he's a N2O Guru on .org & psycho boards), and his Spray bar is Made to run only (1) Jet. So on mine, I could simply move the jet from the 1 into 4 block and install it at the Noid. Maybe I'm not understanding what your saying??



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Just a thought, but should we be talking in percent fuel addition or in absolute terms?

Lets say we have a stock, 155HP gen 1 busa with stock injectore and spray a 65 shot on it. This represents 42% of the power of the engine.

Now lets bump it to a 225hp engine with the same 65 shot. This represents a 29% increase in power

Now factor in larger injectors and or higher fuel pressure....It certainly shouldn't take the same percentage pulse width increase with stock injectors verses 400cc injectors, etc.

Since a given nitrous "shot" is a given amount of horsepower, it also requires a given amount of fuel rather then a set percentage of additional fuel.

I would guess the whole percentage concept is based on power commanders and the fact that most bikes made roughly the same power.

These percentage charts were developed years ago. Maybe it is time for a different approach?

-- Edited by sportbikeryder on Saturday 23rd of January 2010 11:57:58 PM

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sportbikeryder wrote:

Just a thought, but should we be talking in percent fuel addition or in absolute terms?

Lets say we have a stock, 155HP gen 1 busa with stock injectore and spray a 65 shot on it. This represents 42% of the power of the engine.

Now lets bump it to a 225hp engine with the same 65 shot. This represents a 29% increase in power

Now factor in larger injectors and or higher fuel pressure....It certainly shouldn't take the same percentage pulse width increase with stock injectors verses 400cc injectors, etc.

Since a given nitrous "shot" is a given amount of horsepower, it also requires a given amount of fuel rather then a set percentage of additional fuel.

I would guess the whole percentage concept is based on power commanders and the fact that most bikes made roughly the same power.

These percentage charts were developed years ago. Maybe it is time for a different approach?

-- Edited by sportbikeryder on Saturday 23rd of January 2010 11:57:58 PM



biggrinbiggrinbiggrin just give me something that works...and i will adjust accordingly.....single nozzle, dual nozzle, spray bar...whatever...as long as i have a way to adjust solenoid duty and fuel enrichment........smile...it's just a beginning...we can make suggestions in improving later......biggrin

 



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I agree marc. It is all relative to the individual bike and tuner preference.


Just need a knob to turn. Let the tuner figure out where to put it.

I'd settle for a knob that had pictures like this on it for Gen 1 boost compensated fueling biggrin

evolution_of_man.jpg?w=510&h=207

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sportbikeryder wrote:

I agree marc. It is all relative to the individual bike and tuner preference.


Just need a knob to turn. Let the tuner figure out where to put it.

I'd settle for a knob that had pictures like this on it for Gen 1 boost compensated fueling biggrin

evolution_of_man.jpg?w=510&h=207




 now thats some funny stuff right ther john.......give me some control....and i will make it work saftely for me...than i will give good?bad feedback in how it works and how to make it better......biggrin



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i hope the fuel percentage is user defined adjustable......no matter what size jet is being used for any given parameter......this will give the end user a better tuning tool....smile

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petrik,can it be implemented to activate as soon as it is at 90% tps voltage or so without pressing the dsm button as long as the code is active..???

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this would give the riders less distraction without worries of having to grip the handlebars and hitting the button....especially for those who are running an air shifter....?

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stocker wrote:

i hope the fuel percentage is user defined adjustable......no matter what size jet is being used for any given parameter......this will give the end user a better tuning tool....smile



The fuel values can be changed in version 29 that i have on my laptop

 



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stocker wrote:

petrik,can it be implemented to activate as soon as it is at 90% tps voltage or so without pressing the dsm button as long as the code is active..???




I also agree with Stocker.....seems things might get a little Cumbersome?? Just my .02......



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This means you will have to hookup laptop to activate / deactivate ?
Greg , will a solid state relay not do the job best ?
Petrik , my spray bar is a "loop" with 1mm holes above each bellmouth , can I not leave this in place and just move the jet back to the solenoid , I am a bit concerned about distribution with only a pipe.
It seems that the adjustablity of fuel / duty cycle will enable any system to be tuned properly.

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A duty cycly controller will work if the jet is as close as possible to the solenoid. If the jet is at the end of the lines in the bar then there will be pressure build up between the solenoid pulses in to the line (solenoid to jet) and tuinng the beast will be difficult. So nitrous bar:s are good, as long as the stuff from solenoid to bar is travelling in gas form - meaning that the jet is in solenoid and that the openings in the bar are way bigger than the jet.

We can implement all or at least most of the stuff requested above and also the ignition retard by gear there - no problems.

Lets just only get started with testing and figure out if there are any design flaws in this approach. When we have some testing done then we can start implementing new features. I just dont want to continue building new features all the time before we have had time properly look that everyhing works with the basics.

For example the button could be programmed to become activated so that e.g. you can activate for continuous mode while pressing the button and cluch. Then the nitrous could be active in rpm & tps window without DSM button. We can also program dsm buttons to provide less/more duty cycle to the engine - but once again, lets get basics working first.

After initial tuning by someone setting e.g. a #40 jet and then determining needed fuel amounts for 30,50,80 and 100% duty cycles we can move to use hp or % in the numbers - not before this kind of testing.




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stocker wrote:

petrik,can it be implemented to activate as soon as it is at 90% tps voltage or so without pressing the dsm button as long as the code is active..???



my opinion is to be active when a mode is displayed on the dashboard if this can be programmed.

i don't want to have nos enabled all the time for street use lol

 



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PetriK wrote:

A duty cycly controller will work if the jet is as close as possible to the solenoid. If the jet is at the end of the lines in the bar then there will be pressure build up between the solenoid pulses in to the line (solenoid to jet) and tuinng the beast will be difficult. So nitrous bar:s are good, as long as the stuff from solenoid to bar is travelling in gas form - meaning that the jet is in solenoid and that the openings in the bar are way bigger than the jet.

We can implement all or at least most of the stuff requested above and also the ignition retard by gear there - no problems.

Lets just only get started with testing and figure out if there are any design flaws in this approach. When we have some testing done then we can start implementing new features. I just dont want to continue building new features all the time before we have had time properly look that everyhing works with the basics.

For example the button could be programmed to become activated so that e.g. you can activate for continuous mode while pressing the button and cluch. Then the nitrous could be active in rpm & tps window without DSM button. We can also program dsm buttons to provide less/more duty cycle to the engine - but once again, lets get basics working first.

After initial tuning by someone setting e.g. a #40 jet and then determining needed fuel amounts for 30,50,80 and 100% duty cycles we can move to use hp or % in the numbers - not before this kind of testing.



very nice petrik, i am taking bike apart today and installing all of my goodies, i have a sidewinder exaust going on the bike and i hope to have a rough/safe tuned with ecueditor done by the end of today.........very exciting stuff you have petrik......biggrin

 



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stocker and toxxic please email me your address to greg@boostbysmith.com so I can build up these beta harnesses today and ship to you tomorrow.

Greg



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e-mail sent......thanks greg......smile

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PetriK wrote:

... We can also program dsm buttons to provide less/more duty cycle to the engine



 Great feature! A built in "Don't let him get around you" button.

Stocker will be grudge racing that swb bike now biggrin



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smithabusa wrote:

 

stocker and toxxic please email me your address to greg@boostbysmith.com so I can build up these beta harnesses today and ship to you tomorrow.

Greg

 



You have Mail Sir! smile Thank You Greg! 

 



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08 Busa AKA: }ToXSicK{


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sportbikeryder wrote:

PetriK wrote:

... We can also program dsm buttons to provide less/more duty cycle to the engine



 Great feature! A built in "Don't let him get around you" button.

Stocker will be grudge racing that swb bike now biggrin



biggrinbiggrinbiggrinbiggrin bike is coming apart out here now...i will post pics...smile

 



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09 busa.????? now what....still got what it takes.......!

I got what you need...!
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Date:

Here you are how depressing the DSM activation button affects the fuelpulse and ignition. First gear1 where no changes and then on gear6 where you can see 100% increase of the fuelpulse and ignition retard.



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