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Post Info TOPIC: Nitrouscontrol module for gen2


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RE: Nitrouscontrol module for gen2


Received the N2O Relay Wiring from Greg! biggrin Greg as usual, it looks Amazing Sir! Thank you Again for Stepping up and making this all Possible for us. smile

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get to testing :)  I put in my time on boostfuel yesterday LOL

your guy's turn on nitrous

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Will Do! smile I have My Son's Birthday Party today, So looks like tomorrow. wink How the Turbo Coming???

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check a post or 2 down :)

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Have not tested the nitrouscontrol yet based on gregs learnings on boostfuel, but very likely that 50/50 may be very applicable to nitrouscontrol too.


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at 6 psi made 233 hp, with air fuel of 11.8-12:1, and you can see at upper rpms requires some larger numbers in the table, guys with a 50 shot of nos might be getting into that area, and like petrik is saying maybe balancing 50/50 on injectors might make the table look more linear and be a little easier to tune if it is.



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i will flash my ecu to 50/50 and continue to tune, i am almost happy enough to put it on the dyno, thats when i will be testing nitrous control..smile

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This is the direction I am thinking of taking with next nitrous control build.

The ramp up time is the time from first time detecting that the gear is on and then until the target nitrous duty cycle is reached.

Comments - have I forgotten something important ?

gen2nitrouscontrolv201.jpg

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When you guys are done with the current nitrous module testing without rampup rates, we can start to include the rampup algorithm. Its already designed as below, but not tested on workbench and not active inside the ecu as we first need to get the the nitrous controller baseline operation tested. The current nitrous controller is operational, but uses gear based values without rampup. Also fuel delay is not in use. All of these rampup times are in the visible ECU nitrous controller user interface, but those are just not operational within the ecu so changing those will not change anything.

On Off RPM limits and Nitrous solenoid Hz are operational, like all the gear based settings for fuel, duty and ign retard (but not rampup ms).

The way this is designed to work after testing the baseline without rampup is that the ECU starts a ramp up period after each gear change. This ramp up period lenght is user adjustable in the nitrous controller window. In the beginning of the rampup the baseline is set by previous gear, or 0 for gear1. Then during the rampup cycle the values are raising towards the target values (that user can set in the nitrous controller interface). During the transition perioid we use time weighted average of previous gear and current gear values unil these target values are reached at the end of the rampup period. If rampup period is exceeded then current gear values are used until next gear change when a new rampup period is started.

So after a gear change the rampup will be time based linear growth of nitrous duty, fuel increase and ignition retard.

What is not yet designed is that what events will reset the rampup and to what degree.

Comments ???

  /* Nitrous rampup and fuel delay algorithm, this is sample first gear algorithm
   
  if (lastgear != ECU_GPS)
  { // reset switchover algoritm on each gear change
   lastgear = ECU_GPS;
   switchover = 0;
  }
  else
  { // rampup is active after gear change start counting switchiover up to maximum rampover
   if (switchover < rampupgear)
    {
     switchover = switchover + 1;
    }
   else
    {
     switchover = rampupgear;
    }
  }
  // calculate transition point
  transition = (100 * switchover) / rampupgear;
  
  // calculate nitrous duty cycle based on transition
  duty = (((100 - transition)*0*dcounter)/100) + ((transition*dutygear1*dcounter)/100);
  
  // caculate fuel delay and fueladd
  if (ECU_GPS == 1)
   // first gear only fuel delay
   if (switchover > fuel_delay)
    {fueladd = ((100-transition)  * 0) + (transition * fueladdgear1);}
   else
    {fueladd = 0;}
  else
   // other gears no fuel delay, only ramp up same speed as nitrous rampup
    {fueladd = ((100-transition)  * 0) + (transition * fueladdgear1);}
 
  // calculate ignition retard based on transition
  ignretard =((100-transition) * 0) + (transition * ignretardgear1);
  
  */




-- Edited by PetriK on Sunday 31st of January 2010 09:15:23 AM

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Ramp up looks like a very good feature. I assume it ramps up and then plateau's at the max until the next stage is activated (gear change)

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sorry for my ignorance but whats the real benefit of that?

i am waiting Greg's harness too so i will be one of the testers with a dry shot of 36 to 40hp and i also want to know if i change balance to 50/50 is it going to affect the tunning i made so far?

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Matador wrote:

sorry for my ignorance but whats the real benefit of that?

i am waiting Greg's harness too so i will be one of the testers with a dry shot of 36 to 40hp and i also want to know if i change balance to 50/50 is it going to affect the tunning i made so far?




 When you make big power, the bike can be difficult tp keep the front under control almost the whole way down the track. This is like a ramp in on a turbo boost controller 



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Petrik ,
For me the Nitrous control is a dream come true , I think you have now covered every aspect.
What would be very useful though is if we can have a map-able Ign retard for boost control similar to the NO2 .
Is that a lot of work or can it just "carry over" from NO2 control ?

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Matador wrote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


sorry for my ignorance but whats the real benefit of that?

i am waiting Greg's harness too so i will be one of the testers with a dry shot of 36 to 40hp and i also want to know if i change balance to 50/50 is it going to affect the tunning i made so far?



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It can also serve to soften the "hit" in higher HP applications , saving your drive train , clutch.

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I believe ignition control will carry over to boost control once the guys have tested and proved out the nos control stuff first.



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phil, have you made any headway yet..??

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stocker wrote:

phil, have you made any headway yet..??




No Not Yet. no I received my extended Tail Section and decided to Mock it up "REAL QUICK"(ya right!)so I could get it to the Painters.....Well It's been a Total Nightmare!!!! Think I got it licked now though, I have a Tiger Under Tail that should solve all my Problems(I Hope??)...Should be here this week. As soon as I can get that off, I will be on to the N2O. Gonna try to get everything Hooked up and HOPEFULLY Test this Weekend?? smile

What about You....any Luck with it?



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Stocker, its friday, at the dyno tuning?

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smithabusa wrote:

Stocker, its friday, at the dyno tuning?




 sorry greg, not yet...in the many heated disputes and arguements that i have seen posted on various "other bike sites " about what is the best way to spray nitrous, and my very detailed homework in the various already built , readily available nos systems, i have decided to build my own dry kit, my kit will utilize the stock filter and will adress the appearent, "hammering" effect when pulseing the solenoid, and a few other things that i believe that need to be adressed...i will post when i am done fabbing my kit, thank you for both petrik's and your work, to me this is the best way for my bike, and i will feel better knowing i built it.....smile



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i read some of those post you are refering to, they are informative and interested  at the same time. i never know spraying nitrous could be so complex..smile

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Stocker saw a neat home made dry nos airbox setup last week
a local is putting one together and build a distribution head made from a block of aluminium, 4 car brake line fittings and steel line , drops the jets in the 4 hole and screws in the brake line fittings and able to adjust the placement of the tubes
real simple and to me looking quite effective (but hey... i'm no nos guy if there is a potential prob with this setup please let me know and i will pass it on)

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i will be using a showerhead as the distibrution point...

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Looks good - I would guess that having the nozzles more on one side helps in generating turbulence and better mixing with fuel.

What kind of nitrous power add is in mind for that ?



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 There was no discernable difference in Nozzle placement. When I tested my spraybar I measured exhaust gas temps. There was no difference in where the nozzles are placed.

Spraying Nitrous in not complex. It is simple once you figure out it's different phases.

Here is a Solenoid that I had made several years ago. It is designed to be Progressed rapidly




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Yes, nitrous is very often mystified, for me getting the details carved out to clarify the mystification is what is needed. Pictures like this showing equal distribution (lenght and shape of the stream) is a good indication.

To mee these pictures also demonstrate turbulence penetracing deep enough into the throttle bodies generating turbulence and a good air fuel mixture.

The question that has been raised by some is: What does it happen to the stream when the solenoid is pulsated. I guess that even with high speed camera its impossible to see difference in the gas flow as gas is compressable. If it would be liquid, like fuel being cut with a controller, then different - but after solenoid gas expands and then acts as a dampener to keep the flow constant.


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 That is incorrect. If you look closely at the pics you can see the liquid Nitrous as it come out of the nozzles. It is white, as the Nitrous expands it turns into a gas it has a light blue color.

Since Nitrous is an expandable gas it doesnt pulse very well.

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That means that your jets are close to the nozzles ? Which would cause pulsation to be somewhat more apparent but still like you said expandable gas does not pulse much.

This is something I had never thought I would need to get details for - but in this case I want to take some high speed photos for running the nitrous through a solenoid. I have all the gear, just need to fill in the tank and try this out.

OK, or orther opinoins ? Done that already ?

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 My Spraybar kit uses one jet located in the showerhead. It is approximately 12 inches from the Spraybar. Nitrous is injected at 300 to 350 FPS so I would suggest using a flash when you take the pics.

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Low Speed Nitrous Pulses

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgMOPwiWvdo&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXKY3hczkE4&feature=related



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Fuel Injectors at WOT

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2iBbwocYZw

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See the point - need to look into dampening that when I have the kit ready for desktop experiments ...

The renauld F1 is a good one, shows no pulsation there http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2iBbwocYZw

That one just shows how the return pulse throws windows out of the cylinder ensuring that there is a very good mixture in the channel.


-- Edited by PetriK on Saturday 6th of February 2010 10:14:27 PM

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The RPM ramp is simular to inline 4 motorcycle engines. The Injector pulse after 6000 rpm is almost a straight flow. Pulsing Nitrous is not that critical on inline 4 motors since you should spray below 6000 rpm.



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Gixx1300R wrote:

The RPM ramp is simular to inline 4 motorcycle engines. The Injector pulse at 6000 rpm is almost a straight flow. Pulsing Nitrous is not that critical on inline 4 motors since you shouldnt spray below 6000 rpm.



CORRECTION ABOVE

 



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Yes, to my experience pulsing is not critical up to around e.g. +80hp at which point we experienced loosing the grip from the rear.

edit - just realized that I can generate a programmable feature that sets Fuelpulse increase: increase fuelpulse only when nitrous duty cycle is active / increase fuelpulse when nitrous windows active.

In practise this means that the user can choose if the additional fuel is delivered all the time or only when nitrous duty cycle is active and we can put an end to the discussion of nitrous pulsation with dry systems and focus on building the rampup algorithm.

Here is an interesting article for nitrous controller implementation:
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5269275.pdf



-- Edited by PetriK on Sunday 7th of February 2010 09:39:44 AM

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PetriK wrote:

Yes, to my experience pulsing is not critical up to around e.g. +80hp at which point we experienced loosing the grip from the rear.

edit - just realized that I can generate a programmable feature that sets Fuelpulse increase: increase fuelpulse only when nitrous duty cycle is active / increase fuelpulse when nitrous windows active.

In practise this means that the user can choose if the additional fuel is delivered all the time or only when nitrous duty cycle is active and we can put an end to the discussion of nitrous pulsation with dry systems and focus on building the rampup algorithm.




 Nitrous( Progression )pulsing cannot be accurately controlled to the level of the stock fuel injectors with the hardware they is currently used. 

I spray a 150 shot and have sprayed as much as a 200 shot. There are so many other factors that come into play if you are losing traction (suspension, tire compond,tracking prep,track temp)



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Interesting article of why some regulators work with nitrous...

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6938841.pdf

Nozzle design and reasons why the nitrous outlet should be pointing to the fuel stream.

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6520165.pdf




-- Edited by PetriK on Sunday 7th of February 2010 02:39:32 PM

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Very Interesing. I made some similar that sprays the Nitrous to 775psi (a 750 psi liquid Nitrous turns to gas). Mine is adjustable so you can dial in the amount of Nitrous you want to Spray. It eliminates the use of Nitrous Jets.



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PetriK wrote:


Nozzle design and reasons why the nitrous outlet should be pointing to the fuel stream.

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6520165.pdf


Outdated thinking. This is why Nitrous technology have been slow to change in 45 years

 



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Overall most patents are outdated, but as the velocity of the nitrous is higher than fuel I feel its essential either have turbulence of nitrous pointing to the fuel delivery injectors.

Where could I find more information on the pressure setting device ?


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There are no Nitrous Nozzles that will atomize fuel better than the Fuel injectors on the bike. That is why Dry Nitrous systems can work so well. If you would like to do research on Nitrogen or CO2 regulators. Both are cyrogenic gasses.

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... meant the one in the picture ...


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That is my Dial A jet. It eliminates the need for Nitrous Jets. It is also a Pressure Regulator that keep the bottle pressure consistant longer. I'm still testing it.










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Gixx1300R wrote:

Very Interesing. I made some similar that sprays the Nitrous to 775psi (a 750 psi liquid Nitrous turns to gas). Mine is adjustable so you can dial in the amount of Nitrous you want to Spray. It eliminates the use of Nitrous Jets.



Nick, am I understanding this correctly......ANY N2O Sprayed out of a Bottle Under 750PSI is NO Longer in a liquid State??? 

 



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Yes that is correct. if Liquid Nitrous is sprayed below 750psi is converts to a gaseous state. If you have a Pressure Por set at 500 psi you are spraying in a gas from so you will have to increase the jet size to get the desired amount of horsepower vs a Liquid states that would require a smaller jet size.

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Gixx1300R wrote:

Yes that is correct. if Liquid Nitrous is sprayed below 750psi is converts to a gaseous state. If you have a Pressure Por set at 500 psi you are spraying in a gas from so you will have to increase the jet size to get the desired amount of horsepower vs a Liquid states that would require a smaller jet size.




In that, HP is HP...Correct? confuse Meaning there should be No difference, If @ 900psi it Makes 40hp with a .028 Jet....this is the Same as 600psi making 40hp with a .052 Jet(Just using these numbers as an example)? Am I missing Something here?

Thanks Nick

 

 



-- Edited by ToXSicK RoCKeT on Monday 8th of February 2010 11:00:40 PM

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That is correct. That is why is is important to always keep the same bottle pressure when spraying. It you setup your system at 1000 psi. That is what you should always use to spray.

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Gixx1300R wrote:

That is correct. That is why is is important to always keep the same bottle pressure when spraying. It you setup your system at 1000 psi. That is what you should always use to spray.




Gotcha.....Thanks Nick! smile

One other question,

Is there a Rule of thumb to follow as far as Jetting goes for achieving a Specific HP vs Bottle PSI with your Spray Bar? Another Words, if @ 900psi your kit Needs a .028 Jet to make 40hp.......What Jet size would I need @ 600psi to make the Same 40hp? (This is on a Dry Kit of Course)

Thanks



-- Edited by ToXSicK RoCKeT on Tuesday 9th of February 2010 01:49:00 PM

-- Edited by ToXSicK RoCKeT on Tuesday 9th of February 2010 01:51:08 PM

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Gixx1300R wrote:

Yes that is correct. if Liquid Nitrous is sprayed below 750psi is converts to a gaseous state. If you have a Pressure Por set at 500 psi you are spraying in a gas from so you will have to increase the jet size to get the desired amount of horsepower vs a Liquid states that would require a smaller jet size.



This is very true at 70 F, but up here in the more northern climes, most of our drag race season is well below 50 F, and racing on the frozen lakes this time of year is as low as -20 F ....SO you can regulate down to much lower pressures.

As stated earlier, if you are spraying into the airbox, then it doesn't matter and you can regulate down to 500 PSI no problem on a hot summer day.  Air box spray is gas-state and becomes self limiting

On a 50 degree day, you can regulate down to 600 psi and still flow liquid no problem.

 



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Draco1340 wrote:

 

Gixx1300R wrote:



This is very true at 70 F, but up here in the more northern climes, most of our drag race season is well below 50 F, and racing on the frozen lakes this time of year is as low as -20 F ....SO you can regulate down to much lower pressures.

As stated earlier, if you are spraying into the airbox, then it doesn't matter and you can regulate down to 500 PSI no problem on a hot summer day.  Air box spray is gas-state and becomes self limiting

On a 50 degree day, you can regulate down to 600 psi and still flow liquid no problem.

 

 



Thanks Tom. So here in the good Ole California(temps are almost always over 70*F during Race Season), It would be a Pretty Safe bet that if I Regulate my Bottle PSI Down to 600PSI....it Will indeed be in a "Gas" State? 
Also, what Formula/Jetting are you running for this low of Bottle psi? What would Be a Safe Jetting to start with for a 30-40hp with 600psi? 

 



-- Edited by ToXSicK RoCKeT on Tuesday 9th of February 2010 04:16:30 PM

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