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Post Info TOPIC: Nitrouscontrol module for gen2


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RE: Nitrouscontrol module for gen2


smithabusa wrote:

Lee and Quinn called, sending a flasher out tomorrow express, Quinn said he spoke with you.

Did you know they were talking 300 hp with STOCK fuel pump?



i explained a bosch, or walboro will be the safest route,along with raised fuel pressure.....these guy's have been telling me about 90 psiconfuse with stock pumps......no...everyone is scrambling with the announcement of NO super street class this year, everyone is running real street.......hmm

 



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smithabusa wrote:

Lee and Quinn called, sending a flasher out tomorrow express, Quinn said he spoke with you.

Did you know they were talking 300 hp with STOCK fuel pump?



i think between lee and quinn, they both have the knowledge and experience, and resources, with the help from the board to make this work.....he was told by me to do his homework, and he was given time to read carefully the posts in the gen2 section and make his own tuning decisions...

 



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stocker wrote:

i have been testing with the factory o2 off, my only problem is that i an not getting BACK TO BACK, a/f readings testing the same .bin and simulating the same pulls, i suspect a couple of things, 1, my wideband has been subjected to oxygenated , leadded race fuel, 2, i have a multi-piece sidewinder, that HAS to have some oxygen leakage in some of the connections, 3, sidewinders are notorious for reversion problems....a HUGE straight pipe with a sensor placed within 24" of an 2' opening....many widebands can't react fast enough....




If that Damn Toxsick guy would get off his azz and do something......things would get done a little Faster!!! mad.gif

I'm Sorry Guyz,  I know No one wants to Hear excuses....So I won't Bore you with them. I PROMISE as soon As I can I will be testing as well. GREAT JOB Marc & Matador on your Progress so far. Petrik... what can be said that hasn't already.....YOU DA MAN!! Greg, I'm Trying brother....I'm Trying. Things Just keep getting in the dang way!! evileye



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phil, don't worry brother.....everyone has been looking for a way to make competive hp #'s i realstreet.....everyone has the oppourtunity to seek out their own way's of doing things, this is my way.....get that thing together....it will be sick....i am trying as hard as i can and be as accurate as i can.......smile..if it get's tested and works as well as it should thats good for you....my 500mi bike was doing some weird things the other day when there was a small problem within the code....biggrin

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Thanks Marc! smile

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IAT sensor heating up the incoming air just a bit ?




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PetriK wrote:


IAT sensor heating up the incoming air just a bit ?




 


it is around 60 degrees here today in florida.....nice and cool....


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i was doing some test today with 100% duty cycle the bike is  running smooth and goes like rocket.

so i have 2 questions what is the best afr for this bike when running with nos?
and what is the best solenoid duty hz to start with progressive tunning?

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have any dyno graphs or data to share?  I have quite a few people waiting to hear some good news on the harness :)

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Petrik,

I can't remember, has anything changed regarding needing to hold up button on handlebar for it to be active?  A couple of the guys testing I think are going to need to defeat this, ill need to look into what it takes to make the ecu think the button is always pressed. They are drag only bikes and when the bike is running they will want it active.  or would it be possible to maybe have to hit the arrow once to turn it on or something?

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yesturday i started with 20% 1st 40% 2nd 60% 3rd and 100% 4,5,6 with hz at 15 and fueling at 1st 10% 2nd 15% 3rd and up 25% taking timing out of 2nd on up...2 degrees, i am using 2-28 jets spraying at 1000psi..a/f is 11.4 and going up to 12.6, so i am trying a new sensor for my wideband...

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smithabusa wrote:

Petrik,

I can't remember, has anything changed regarding needing to hold up button on handlebar for it to be active?  A couple of the guys testing I think are going to need to defeat this, ill need to look into what it takes to make the ecu think the button is always pressed. They are drag only bikes and when the bike is running they will want it active.  or would it be possible to maybe have to hit the arrow once to turn it on or something?




 it is hard to shift and holdon and press the button..



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if neeeded i could make harnesses with a toggle switch, but if a special command that ecu sees would be cool too, people would enjoy not having to add a toggle switch if not required.

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Sure - I will add that feature, either button activation or just RPM/TPS window activation.

About AFR - also just realized that its possible that we need to add a parameter to keep the AFR constant. Let me see into that too in a short while how the additional fuel is computed.





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i ll go on the dyno on next week maybe monday or wendsday.
i use quick shift so no problem with pushing the button but it would be nice if we can use something to toggle on off.
your harness Greg works perfect but i don't know if the relay can handle quick openings with more than 10hz maybe we must use something faster but you know bettersmile

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PetriK wrote:

Sure - I will add that feature, either button activation or just RPM/TPS window activation.

About AFR - also just realized that its possible that we need to add a parameter to keep the AFR constant. Let me see into that too in a short while how the additional fuel is computed.



i would prefer button activation i use my bike on public roads and i also need the full throtlle hehe .

 



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time will tell, obviously relay is the easy way out as they are inexpensive, and dont require making up a printed circuit or anything

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Matador wrote:

i was doing some test today with 100% duty cycle the bike is  running smooth and goes like rocket.

so i have 2 questions what is the best afr for this bike when running with nos?
and what is the best solenoid duty hz to start with progressive tunning?




For N2O.....I would NOT go above 12.5:1 AFR...Maybe even error more to the Safer Side of 12.2:1. On a Longer Run, Such as LSR Most like to see it 11.8-12.2:1, But for Short Drag Racing applications I believe 12.5:1 is a Good Safe Target. wink



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The button activation toggle switch is in implemented into latest build 2.1.0.53.

We have always verified the EGT on bigger shots. Target AFR perhaps is dependent on amount of nitrous shot ? I have seen this kind of formula used, but never used this by myself as not been done really big shots...

AFR = (fuelhp/totalhp * allmotorAFR) + (nitroushp/totalhp * nitrousAFR)

usually allmotor afr is 13.1 and nitrous afr is 7 so, e.g.
(200/300 * 13.1) + (100/300 * 7) = 11.1
where as with 50 shot only
(200/250 * 13.1) + (50/200 * 7) = 11.88
but with 150shot the target afr becomes 10.5...

What do you think of this way of defining target afr ?





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i dont know a ton about nitrous, but my turbo bike wont ignite anything much less than 10.8:1

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Stoich AFR for gasoline is 14.7, nitrous is way less. Therefore nitrous mixtures ignite still even at 9AFR and lower (depending on how much nitrous). With petrol only (like turbos) seldom reason to go lower than 12 as we can now control the temperatures with ignition. In the stoneage with turbos when ignition was not accesable the excess fuel was used to prevent full ignite of mixture and hence lower cylinder temps. With nitrous we can control all this with fuel and ignition, just throwing in how the AFR target could be calculated.

A sample of what I mean with first google hit...
http://www.modularfords.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150757



-- Edited by PetriK on Wednesday 24th of February 2010 02:55:45 PM

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PetriK wrote:

The button activation toggle switch is in implemented into latest build 2.1.0.53.

We have always verified the EGT on bigger shots. Target AFR perhaps is dependent on amount of nitrous shot ? I have seen this kind of formula used, but never used this by myself as not been done really big shots...

AFR = (fuelhp/totalhp * allmotorAFR) + (nitroushp/totalhp * nitrousAFR)

usually allmotor afr is 13.1 and nitrous afr is 7 so, e.g.
(200/300 * 13.1) + (100/300 * 7) = 11.1
where as with 50 shot only
(200/250 * 13.1) + (50/200 * 7) = 11.88
but with 150shot the target afr becomes 10.5...

What do you think of this way of defining target afr ?



Petrik sir maybe is better  tps and button /tps only
cause with rpm and button/button only either one way or another u still have to press the button

 



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Oh - thanks, my mistake in wording - sorry. Meant to say RPM/TPS only. Will fix this soon. Functionally should work already, not tested on desktop though yet.

I have looked into nitrous fuelling algorithm - the nitrous fuelpulse is calculated the following way:

(TPS_map_value + nitrous_map_value) * Various_TPS_compensations

This means that the additional fuelpulse for nitrous should be more or less independent of RPM, but need more time to look into this in detail.



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so is activation rpm/tps only now..i am contuning to test today....if it is that would be great

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Yep .54 has a toggle switch, anyhow not tested on desktop - just changed the nitrouscontrol.c and ecueditor interface. Kind of busy now, so dont have time for testing.

The AFR puzzles me. Its fairly easy to make a calculation that adds more fuel per RPM, but to figure out the rootcause requires more testing (at least in my end) if its in the software or in your environment.


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i am off to get nitrous, i will check in later

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Hopefully some of th erealstreet guys have read adn have an understanding of how all of this works. Seems that there may be quite a few melted bikes in Valdosta with all of the last minute changes in setup that people are trying....

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smithabusa wrote:

time will tell, obviously relay is the easy way out as they are inexpensive, and dont require making up a printed circuit or anything




 The aftermarket controllers use solid state controls. Any serious attempt will likely need a solid state control as the relay will likely be the weak link with pwm. Might be worth looking into what the Megasquirt guys are doing.



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a mosfet i am sure, thats what injector drivers were etc, i just know from past experience relays worked good enough for a 2 step, so who knows

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A/F ratio 12.2 is want you want. 12.13835 is absolutely perfect

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Gixx1300R wrote:

A/F ratio 12.2 is want you want. 12.13835 is absolutely perfect




 I think the question is if this applies to varying amounts of Nitrous.



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There are alot of variables,type of fuel,retard of timing,spark plugs,altitude,piston compression,amount of N2O that you are spraying.

-- Edited by Gixx1300R on Wednesday 24th of February 2010 07:29:37 PM

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As said we always have tuned for EGT, but then during past months I have been continously coming up this "propotional AFR for gasoline/nitrous mixture". The reason for starting to look for this is somewhat inconsistent AFR results compared to EGTs when adding shots.


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Been thinking of the AFR, and here are my thoughts:

1) Do you in general see AFR changing with wet nitrous systems over rpm range ? This would confirm the thinking below.

2) If all motor hp increases in relation to nitrous hp then according to the formula the AFR should be getting higher too when all motor hp climbs up.

To me this means that if as a starting point you have 100hp all motor power and 50hp nitrous and afr is 11.3 then with 200hp all motor power and 50hp nitrous the afr gets to 11.8 just because of the motoring afr increase. As a rule of thumb like 0.5AFR for each 100 all motor hp.



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2 x 28jet = 60hp
All motor gen2 busa with good sidewinder = 185hp
total = 245hp

AFR gets climbing up more than 0.5 => bosch fuel pump & 50/50 injector balance needed ?


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Injectors should always be balanced and better mapping is probably needed

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I think we were referring to different balancing... by injector balancing meant 50%=primaries, 50%=secondaries - this method gives more flow with busa than stock setting 20/80 for WOT.

If AFR raises steadily with RPM without an apparent reason and is not reacting to mapping attempts to my experience fuel flow capacity of the system is exceeded. Dont remember if Mark upgraded the pump yet, but stock pump capacity with this hp is well exceeded. Bosch pump is a direct fit (both dia and lenght), diameter of walbro is different and requires more work to be fitted to the housing.


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OK,you are referring to the Gen 2 Busas. That is correct,you have maxed out the pump capacity. Bosch and Walbro pumps will work but I have always suggested a total Fuel system up grade (pump,fuel tank outlet,Fuel rail and a larger diameter line). Upping the pressure beyond a certain psi can cause the Injector coeffecient to drop and you will get less fuel.  You also need Fuel volume and well as fuel pressure if you go beyond a certain horsepower level. Also look at the duty cycle of the injectors and try not to exceed 85%


 



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i made 280 hp with the stock rail on the gen 2, i dont think thats a restriction, made 460 hp on my 2000 busa with stock fuel tank outlet as well.

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Lets summarize the homework done already before having an discussion about matters of opinion...
- Stock injectors flow 280@100% duty, we have 8 of those
- Fuelrail volume on gen2 is ok for these powerlevels, its not like gen1 where feed is from one end which were prone to failure with too low fuel pressure and overrunning the duty cycles
- Duty cycle with 50/50 balancing is around 60-65% for this low powerlevels (if I remember correctly), well below any critical thresholds

And then starting a discussion about opinion:

Talking about upping pressure in nitrous is confusing and not one of the recommended practises at least where we tune and build nitrous engines. Why would one up the pressure - for better atomization and mixing nitrous ? Dont understand that argument as with gen2 the mixing happens inside the port anyway because of the TB design. The fuel is injected on other side of plates inside TB:s - so the nitrous should go on that side too if we wish better atomization.



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On the Gen 2 Busa,the Primary injectors will spray until a certain rpm. At that time the secondary injectors start to Spray and the primaries reduce their injector pulse? Is this correct?

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In a way yes, injector balancing is a TPS/RPM map which we can tune using ecueditor.

To maximize the fuel delivery at WOT the injector balance needs to be set to 50/50 (instead of 20/80).


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i will be up-gradeing to the bosch on monday if i can find it locally, also on a same note, i am at 50/50 already.....

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thanks petrik, hopefully we can get this sorted soon....

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stocker wrote:

i will be up-gradeing to the bosch on monday if i can find it locally, also on a same note, i am at 50/50 already.....




Marc, I guess maybe I missed something along the way here. confuse What Happened in your testing?? Are you going LEAN on the Spray? What was your AFR @ what HP of N2O?



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PetriK wrote:

In a way yes, injector balancing is a TPS/RPM map which we can tune using ecueditor.

To maximize the fuel delivery at WOT the injector balance needs to be set to 50/50 (instead of 20/80).




Petrik, I'm still trying to Completely understand this 50/50 Balancing. At what HP levels are you thinking we need to do this? Is this Something that should be done "anytime" we are Spraying?

Thanks



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ECUeditor will tell you at the dyno when its time for 50/50 wink.gif. That is covered quite in detail elsewhere in turbo context here on this board.





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PetriK wrote:


ECUeditor will tell you at the dyno when its time for 50/50 wink.gif. That is covered quite in detail elsewhere in turbo context here on this board.




AWESOME! You took the guess work right out of it! smile Thank you Sir.



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i tried with a 30shot dry kit by fogging the box everything works fine the afr is from 12.5 and drops to 11.2 my problem is that i don't have a pressure regulator to keep the psi constant.

on the road when i hit 100% duty cycle the kick is bad can we make the ramp up times operational?

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Matador wrote:

i tried with a 30shot dry kit by fogging the box everything works fine the afr is from 12.5 and drops to 11.2 my problem is that i don't have a pressure regulator to keep the psi constant.

on the road when i hit 100% duty cycle the kick is bad can we make the ramp up times operational?




 

Great to hear Matador! smile You might know this already, But MPS sells the Pressure Pro(N2O Reg)that works GREAT.

So what size Jet(s) are you running @ what Starting n2o PSI? When you say the "Kick is bad".....How Bad, does it wheelie or just starts Pulling like a Raped Ape? Hearing this gets me all Gitty inside...lol biggrin Cant wait to Test!!!!!

**Forgot to Ask, what %'s are you running in the Fuel Table for a 30 Jet(s)?**

Thanks



-- Edited by ToXSicK RoCKeT on Saturday 6th of March 2010 06:42:53 AM

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