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Post Info TOPIC: Gen2 ECU conversion for a GEN1 for use in a Prostreet Bike


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Gen2 ECU conversion for a GEN1 for use in a Prostreet Bike


I am thinking about converting my Gen1 turbo bike to Gen2 electronics to run in prostreet. I have currently been 8.0's and should be in the 7's next time out. This winter I plan to change quite a bit to get the bike more into prostreet trim (currently still stock tank, frame, and triple clamps). I have a few questions / comments regarding the switch:

Cam sensor / Crank sensor compatibility: Perhaps PetriK can shed some light on this as to what is required for a change out to Gen2 Electronics, i.e. can Gen 1 sensors / rotor be utilized or is a change to Gen2 sensors and rotor required?

Primary / Secondary injectors: I currently have stock Gen1 primary injectors (~240CC/min) and I believe 1000cc/min secondary injectors (I will verify flow) in the plenum. I know the injector sizes can be modified as well as injector sharing percentage / distribution, however I am not sure the current Ecu Editor values are appropriate. Shoudl be an easy mod to make them whatever is needed.

MAP Sensor: Current software is configured to accept a GM 3 bar sensor. This will likely not be enough boost and a greater than 3 bar sensor will be required. I know there is already "talks" about a different sensor for this reason between PetriK and Greg. Is this info / discussion posted somewhere or is info ralatign to current direction available?

Shift / Launch light capability: I will likely not be utilizing the boostcontrol algorithm as I have an AMS1000 controller currently. Current software provides no shiftlight control for boost fuel applications. Again, I believe this coudl be an easy modification to allow for a shift / launch light in teh ECU. I will not be using any gauges and would prefer not to use an external shift light and would require a launch indicator light. Likely the same light, configurable for ~7700 on, 8000 off, 11700 on, 12XXX off would be beneficial.

Misc support / assistance ?? who know just yet, possibly variable shift kill times for lower / higher gears, etc.


Basically,I will have my bike and open access to a dyno for tuning. I currently made ~485 hp with gen 1 and secondaries (basically stopped tuning at that level) and have ran a best et of 8.02 and 182MPH (at 715 lbs). I plan to make the bike more "Prostreet" over the winter and I have a good working knowledge of general tuning as well as ECU tuning (at least for gen1). I will improve on the ET's with more chassis mods and seat time / tuning and would like to do so with ECU tuning. While I woudl prefer a GEN1 ECU, it is really not practical to expect to develop all necessary with teh GEN2 so far already. I already have a GEN2 ecu and harness, although I will be making a custom harness and locating the ECU in the front of the bike. Bike will likely have an NLR SIM as well.

I can take care of all fabrication changes, engine building, wiring, and tuning on the dyno, however, I will likely need at least some support from the likes of PetriK, Greg, Stocker (Marc), Justin, etc to make this a viable lower to mid 500's HP, Mid 7 second effort.  The commitment to GEN2 should be fairly easy, however there a few items (mostly listed above) that may give a few hiccups to a prostreet application.


If anyone has information relating to the above questions or is willing to support the changeout (specifically with software tweaks if needed), please post here.


Thanks,
John


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gen2 cam sensor is needed, also i believe the gen2 rotor is a 24-2, but i would have to check in the shop....

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stocker wrote:

gen2 cam sensor is needed, also i believe the gen2 rotor is a 24-2, but i would have to check in the shop....



This is the kind of info I need, I am a Gen2 Noob biggrin, Thanks Marc!

 



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yes the gen2 is actuall a 24-2-1...so start looking for one...., also a cam pos sensor, it is 3 wire hall effect, ttl level signal...so u need one of those also..

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Any idea if the can sensor will fit in teh valve cover? I know it is 1 bolt vs two, but haven't seen one to see if it would bolt up. Alternatively, valve cover may swap?



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swap covers, and use a brocks offset pin, depending on the timing....

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john, don't correctly know it the gen2 cover directly fits...looking into it now..

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hey, i know of a great cam combo, and timing recommendations that has made big power if your combo is short, when turned up....biggrin

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stocker wrote:

john, don't correctly know it the gen2 cover directly fits...looking into it now..



The Gen II cover fits on a GEN I head but you have to block off the emission holes from the PAIR valves in the cover.

Same goes the other way round but this time its the holes in the head you have to block off.

 



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stocker wrote:

hey, i know of a great cam combo, and timing recommendations that has made big power if your combo is short, when turned up....biggrin



And the combo is ?

 



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a well developed turbo combo......biggrin...and yes it works..smile

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Anyone have any insight on the MAP sensor higher than 3 bar?

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Nothing yet John the one I bought isn't plug and play like I previously thought

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I've used this 4-bar GM style before, hopefully plug and play with Gregs harness. Just have to have PetriK reconfigure the voltage reference tables in EcuEditor for the 4 bar.

http://www.iapdirect.com/product.php?productid=42042

-- Edited by turbogpz on Saturday 18th of September 2010 10:11:38 PM

-- Edited by turbogpz on Saturday 18th of September 2010 10:14:13 PM

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he hardware interface isn't the problem, the software modification is the concern since the calibration table is embedded into the firmware rather than being a user configurable table.

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the ssi info that john provided can be added to ee2 semi-easily, the downfall was price and availability, the ssi sensor was expensive, the gm was cheap,and readily available to the public.......hey john, here's your chance to shine,,,implement it into ee2 as an option, a radio button that can be picked so that the algrothin can be used.....

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i would be as supportive as possible.......to you john, get it done.....smile

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Anyone know if the Stator also need to be changed out or just the rotor??

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It appears the stator and Rotor must be swapped as the stator is a different diameter.


Once I obtain a GEN2 rotor, I will compare to a GEN1 to see if machining changes could be made to use modified GEN1 as well.

This seems feasible since the GEN1 is 24-1 and the GEN2 is 24-2.

Could it be as simple as just machining another tooth off of the GEN1 to acheive a GEN2 compatible rotor (assuming the rotors are indexed the same way with the keyway)?



-- Edited by sportbikeryder on Tuesday 21st of September 2010 04:04:51 PM

-- Edited by sportbikeryder on Tuesday 21st of September 2010 04:26:46 PM

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Was it really 24-1 vs 24-2 ? Then machining one tooth off should do it as long as the center of first tooth hits the sensor edge at the same point. I recall that with cam sensor there is some difference in offset too, but that may be because of different cam sensor position.



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PetriK, I am not certain of the differences in GEN1 vs GEN2 since I do not have a GEN2 rotor.

ZX10BUD had posted the following for a GEN1 rotor, which I believe is 24-1.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y250/zx10bud/rotorpick2.jpg



PetriK, Has it been your experience or thoughts that a GEN1 cam sensor can work with a GEN2 ecu, assuming cam pin offsets are cured? I was under the inpression that the GEN2 is a different type of sensor than a GEN1.



-- Edited by sportbikeryder on Tuesday 21st of September 2010 04:27:14 PM

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yes - gen2 is different type cam sensor. In the kawi project we only have primary injectors, but full STP control for more linear power delivery. No IAC connected.



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All of the current GSXR models use the same cam position sensor as the GenII hayabusa if you're gonna be looking for a used one.

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Gen2 rotor (inside) is bigger than Gen1 so you will need the rotor and stator to work.

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Does anyone happen to have both a gen1 and a gen2 rotor handy to look at the teeth? I am wondering if the gen 1 tooth count can just be machined to match a gen2?

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Fellow board member Proutyc from New Zealand has sent me the following images. So far it looks as though the Gen1 rotor can be used with a Gen2 ECU by simply machinng one additional "tooth" off of the rotor.


John



GEN2_Rotor_Comparo_3.JPGGEN2_Rotor_Comparo_2.JPGGEN2_Rotor_Comparo_1.JPG


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Hey John.

Something I hadn't factored until last night was the immobliser on the Gen2.

I assume we'd need keys too as they have a chip it in that the ECU looks for.

Anyone know how we can bypass this on race engines??

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It is my understanding that the US, california, or Canadian ECU's do not have an immobilizer on them, others do have them. If you have an AUS or other ECU, you may be out of luck as far as the immobilizer. It can be bypassed, however that information is not made public so as to limit malicious use.

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Thanks goodness for that John.

I've got US electrics coming down from one of the guys on SH.org. I forgot all about the immoblisher.

On my mate K8 race car I foprgot we had to tape the key and key surround to the car so that we could get it to run.



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Found a glich in my plan....Current secondary injcectors in my bike are low impedance and likely will not work with the stock ECU drivers.evileye
crying.gif


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sportbikeryder wrote:

Found a glich in my plan....Current secondary injcectors in my bike are low impedance and likely will not work with the stock ECU drivers.evileye

crying.gif


Can you use injector resitors ?

 



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Not sure if ballast resistors will work or not. They probably woudl. that or an additional control driver. Don't really want to go with an additional control driver though since the whole point of this is to reduce all of the piggyback boxes.

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Looks like resistors could be a fair possibility

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Not sure that the current 3 bar boost sensor will work out. I have already run 29+psi logged manifold pressure and that is not what I would call "turned up" yet. Need to investigate the potential for a different sensor.

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My season is now over and while I did not make it into the 7's, I ran pretty much as close as one can... 8.004 was the final best ET. I have plans to change the chassis over the winter to get it into the 7's (hopefullysmile.gif )

I think I will go forward with the Gen2 conversion as noted below with large (1000cc) primary injectors and custom wire harness, and tackle the higher pressure MAP sensor (already running 30 psi) and lack of shiftlight control, as required.



Cam sensor / Crank sensor compatibility: I believe the Gen1 rotor can be modified to work as a gen2 compatible pickup by removing one tooth from the rotor. Cam sensor will be Gen 2 Valve cover and sensor with offset pin, if offset pin proves necessary.

Primary / Secondary injectors: Looking at using only 4 large primary injectors, ID1000, from Injector Dynamics and disabling the secondaries.


MAP Sensor: This could still be a limiting issue for very high boost applications. Since the calibration curve is known for 3-bar to stock I believe other sensors (i.e. 5 bar ssi) shoudl be farily easy to implement. I will ask for assistance from Stocker (Marc) if this is needed adn possibly a little help from PetriK/JKwool to make a test build for experimentation purposes.  


Current software is configured to accept a GM 3 bar sensor. This will likely not be enough boost and a greater than 3 bar sensor will be required. I know there is already "talks" about a different sensor for this reason between PetriK and Greg. Is this info / discussion posted somewhere or is info relating to current direction available?

Shift / Launch light capability: can use an external **** / launch light if needed. Woudl however like to investigate this option as it seems to be a viable one to eliminate external boxes and to be able to claim a 7 second prostreet using ONLY the stock ECU.


I will likely not be utilizing the boostcontrol algorithm as I have an AMS1000 controller currently. Current software provides no shiftlight control for boost fuel applications. Again, I believe this coudl be an easy modification to allow for a shift / launch light in teh ECU. I will not be using any gauges and would prefer not to use an external shift light and would require a launch indicator light. Likely the same light, configurable for ~7700 on, 8000 off, 11700 on, 12XXX off would be beneficial.

Misc support / assistance: Seems PetriK has already addressed the shifter kill times by gear issue, I just need to wrap my head around it if it becomes necessary.


?? who know just yet, possibly variable shift kill times for lower / higher gears, etc.


John

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So close.

I'll keep you in ther loop on how mine progresses too John.

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Two more potential issues with a Gen1 conversion:


ISC will not be used on this application
.  Is software over-ride functional when switching ISC to "off"?



STP will not be used on this application. Is there a method of preventing ECU codes with this not installed? Resistor to simulate the motor windings? Software over-ride? Resistor in the secondary TPS to simulate open plates along with re-programming the STP map to all 100% open?

-- Edited by sportbikeryder on Thursday 7th of October 2010 12:52:36 AM

-- Edited by sportbikeryder on Thursday 7th of October 2010 01:00:15 AM

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john, you are ok on both......smile...i dug up the info for the ssi sensor, and the 3d map conversion thet petrik implemented in ee2..wink...we have a 1700+cc engine without an isc and secondary blades....aww...and it run's ok...imslow.gif

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stocker wrote:

john, you are ok on both......smile...i dug up the info for the ssi sensor, and the 3d map conversion thet petrik implemented in ee2..wink...we have a 1700+cc engine without an isc and secondary blades....aww...and it run's ok...imslow.gif



Thanks Marc. Did you have to do anything to the ECU inputs / outputs for the secondary TPS and the stepper motor for the STP?

 



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JOHN, THE ISC CAN BE DISABLED, AS SO THE SECONDARIES ..........WE RUN BORED TB'S WITHOUT THE SECONDARIES WITHOUT THE BLADES.....

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Great topic!
We will be making this conversation to my outlaw bike also, this was supposed to do last summer, but i had way too much fun with all other technical issues...
But we should start looking into/working with this at end of the month.

First i will get into the mechanical issues and idea is to make completely purposebuild wiring to race use. I hope to get help from you guys and ofcourse from PetriK, who's the main innovator to me to even start this project.

I will report more when we start "grinding" and keep updating on the way. Is it ok to Sportbikerider to use your topic for this, since we have equal goals?

-Rami

OUTLAW 99 Dragbike Team
Finland
http://www.eniten.fi/album/index.html



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O U T L A W  9 9



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Rami wrote:

 

Is it ok to Sportbikerider to use your topic for this, since we have equal goals?

-Rami



Of course! I encourage it. Always better to have more help on something.


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Now to look at the resistance values for the Coolant temp sensor, the TPS, and the Intake Air temp sensor to ensure compatibility and to reduce future unknown gremlins. I will start with the shop manuals I suppose (need to round up a gen 2 manual).


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Coolant temp sensors sre identical, Intake Air Temperature Sensors are slightly off, however difference is minimal. Gen1 use same calibration for both sensors, Gen2 uses a slihtly different calibration on the Air Temp sensor.

Seems that either set of sensors shoudl give acceptabel performance.
If sensor calibration tables are identified itn the future such as for GEN1, perhaps use of other, open element air temp sensors may be practical for turbo applications with high intake temps.

Coolant

Temp (F) Gen1 k Gen2 k
68 2.450 2.450
122 0.811 0.811
176 0.318 0.318
230 0.142 0.142
266 0.088






Intake Air

Temp (F) Gen1 k Gen2 k
68 2.450 2.580
122 0.808
176 0.322 0.280
230 0.148
248
0.090


Intake Air Pressure and Atmospheric Air Pressure sensors all use the same calibration for both GEN1 and GEN2. The sensors are different, but should all be interchangable electrically.

-- Edited by sportbikeryder on Saturday 9th of October 2010 02:13:11 PM

-- Edited by sportbikeryder on Saturday 9th of October 2010 02:21:04 PM

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any more progress on this?????

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I have received all of the components (less the NLR SIM and offset cam pin) to do the conversion, just waiting to get some free time to wire it. I will likely wire it temporarily first, then re-make a more custom harness.

-- Edited by sportbikeryder on Tuesday 14th of December 2010 09:09:05 PM

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Its Alive!!

Seems to run ok too (at least free revving). No offset cam pin is installed (stock GEN1 cam and gen1 pin.

Stock GEN1 injectors for now., no secondaries.

Finally got a few minutes to work on it and it fired fairly easily, after a small problem with flashing the ecu.

Note, Engine will not run without a signal to the coolant temperature sensor.
Code for secondary TPS and motor not existing is present, but all other codes are removed from either sensors being installed or software override.

May need an override for the STVA tps and motor errors to prevent MIL illumination.


Let the games begin!

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great news john.......!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!biggrin

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My wife and kids looked at me like I was a goofball when I came in the house all happy. I guess some people just don't understand...

spin.gifomfg.gifparty.gif

-- Edited by sportbikeryder on Friday 28th of January 2011 12:02:40 AM

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This motor is using a GEN1 rotor with one tooth removed to make it 24-2. I have not yet put my scope on it to see how it is interfacing with the cam trigger, but it seems to rev fairly cleanly up to ~10K rpm.

Gen1 key switch works with Gen2 harness as well.



Very limited testing of actual running due to not having a radiator on the bike at the moment, as well as no front end at all (just an empty steering neck and some controls hanging out

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