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Post Info TOPIC: 2 step rev limiter


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2 step rev limiter


Is it possible to control rev limit from neutral maps to be used as a 2 step limiter?

someone made it with rom raider at Gen1 and works great can this be implemented to ecu editor for the Gen2?

when clutch pressed or depressed the rev limit change so we can launch better or spool up the turbo it will be a nice feature.

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Any answer on that?  enyone?

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It would be really nice.
Especially if you could retard timing and set rev. limit.
Maybe one of the Guru's will be interested ?

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Its in my plans to implement this for the next season...


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That would be great if it works out. The class I run we cant use a 2 step. If this can be implemented it will drive the tech inspectors crazy, not to metion the other racers. LOL

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If you can't use a 2-step, then using a 2-step would be illegal....

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Guys, Looks Like PetriK has uploaded a new version of ECU Editor for testing this feature

 version 2.5.0.27

http://macmadigan.no-ip.com/ecueditor2.5/ecueditor_prerelease.htm

Please download adn test this feature and report back with results. It will be beneficial to test at a variaty of rev limits, both low in teh range and higher int eh rev range. Feedback on overall functionality as well as smoothness or "feel" of the limiter will be beneficial.

John


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Here it is guys, awiting results from testing...

Attachments
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Nice, could you port it on b-king as well?

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I am testing it tomorow on the track with a natural apirated busa and the next week with a turbo busa. I am going to back up some ignition too on the neutral map on the turbo to see if it helps build pressure at the start line.

Petrik you are the MAN but i guess u know it.biggrin

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ballad2, Once tested, Jkwool may be able to port to B-king.

Matador, Sounds good. Please try to test a few different RPM ranges while you are at it and try it without modifying the ignition at first if you could.

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OK i did some testing and yes it works nice. i tried different revs like 4k,5k,6k very nice but then i faced a problem. when i use the clutch to up shift everything is fine but when u try to up shift with the quick shifter the engine kill is very hard and long, so i guess that something is messing with the shifter code.any idea what is that?

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another finding is that if i set the clt/nt rev limit at 7k and and use the quick shift to up shift at 6k everything works perfect but when i shift at 7k or above the engine kil is bad hard and long.no

I think that a filter must be used to ignore the neutral limit when the clutch is desengaged.confuse

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Interesting. I will have to defer to PetriK on this as I do not know how the Gen2 shifter kill functions.

This is the value of having people testing the software as it is modified, helps find these bugs.

John

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have had same problem as matador. the shifts above the neutral map rev limit are interupted

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other than that it launches real good. its a nice feature if you can get it sorted for using quickshifter

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Thanks, for the feedback.

I assume that when the shift is activated the resistor pulls the gear to below recognized value causing ecu to fault to error - i.e. setting a low rpm limiter during the shifter switch is activated.

As a quick fix setting the limiter to stock levels should not activate this limiter. Also this should not happen with DSM activated shifters - which I suggest being used in racing bikes.



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Would it be possible to just implement the launch limiter only when the clutch is pulled, rather than with neutral gear position too?

That way the flatshift signal shouldn't affect the limiter.

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sportbikeryder wrote:

ballad2, Once tested, Jkwool may be able to port to B-king.

Matador, Sounds good. Please try to test a few different RPM ranges while you are at it and try it without modifying the ignition at first if you could.



I modified BKingLimiters.vb (and its associated form)  in order to support a separate limiter for the clutch and neutral fuel maps. I'm just unsure about the word offset of the limiters in the BKing bin file. Is there a document that explains all the "discovered" address locations and their content?

Here below the selection handler for the NT/CLT limiter checkbox.
------

Private Sub NTCLT_SelectedIndexChanged(ByVal sender As System.Object, ByVal e As System.EventArgs) Handles NTCLT.SelectedIndexChanged
Dim i As Integer
Dim baseline As Integer


baseline = 10501
' Set various RPM limits based on RPM value selected
i = Val(NTCLT.Text)
_addedRpm = i - baseline ' we are just setting here the baseline
'
' RPM/Fuel soft hard type 3 neutral, stock settings
'
WriteFlashWord(&H74A86, Int((_rpmConv / (_addedRpm + (_rpmConv / &H594)) + 1)))
WriteFlashWord(&H74A88, Int((_rpmConv / (_addedRpm + (_rpmConv / &H587)) + 1)))
'
' RPM/Ignition clutched limiters, stock settings
'
WriteFlashWord(&H74358, Int((_rpmConv / (_addedRpm + (_rpmConv / &H524)) + 1)))    ' --db ??? H74358 ???
WriteFlashWord(&H7435A, Int((_rpmConv / (_addedRpm + (_rpmConv / &H518)) + 1)))    ' --db ??? H7435A ???


End Sub

 



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I'll check into clutch only, thats a very good thinking.

About Bking limiters, the bias between limiters addresses could be the same compared to any of the known addresses of same style (fuel or ign). Otherwise someone needs to check from disassembly.

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PetriK wrote:

I'll check into clutch only, thats a very good thinking.

About Bking limiters, the bias between limiters addresses could be the same compared to any of the known addresses of same style (fuel or ign). Otherwise someone needs to check from disassembly.



Agreed, so in this case the only missing thing to implement the 2 step limiters on BKing is the start address of the clutch limiter.

I think we should remove all the numeric constants from the sources and replace them with mnemonics, while all the definitions are in a separate include file. In this way k8 and bking could share the code at a greater extent, only the mnemonic values would be different. If the used location content are documented, I could volounteer to clean up all the code (the conversion process can be easily automated).


 



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The easiest way with BKing would be to build a bking gauge emulator as an add on module to busa firmware and then flash the Busa ecu code to bking ecu ? That would be relatively easy if a bking gauge cluster would be available for some time.

Thanks for volunteering, parametrizing software alone is impractical as it would need to start from firmware disassembly and would require a lot of time.

About clutch only, in the firmware aroud 0x403AC - 0x403BC there is comparison of gear value to Neutral and setting a limiter flag accordingly. We could make this comparison always defaul to non valid regardless of the gear with this instruction set:

default fuel limiter: writeflashbyte(&H403B3,1)
clutch only fuel limiter: writeflashbyte(&H403B3,&HFF)

The same applies to ignition limiter, but there the comparison is not to gear, but rather a GPS raw voltage in the beginning of sub_36E34.

Before implementing any of this I am just curious if for 2 step limiter the fuel limiter is really setting the clutched limiter or is it the ignition limiter ? Reason for asking this is that even when cutting the fuel there is some residual fuel in the intake so cutting fuel makes the engine run quite lean. On the other hand letting the fuel to run and cutting ignition only the unburnt fuel burns in exhaust causing popping which may not be too good for the valve retainers.

EDIT - there is also a TPS thresholded ignition limiter, so it may be possible that 2 step ignition limiter is set by TPS condition like TPS < 50% otherwise the ignition limiter is set as currently.

So what would be the optimum cutting style, i.e. at what point the fuel and at what point the ignition if you intend to run the bike agains the limiter for a longer period of time ?

How does the commercial 2 step limiters work - ignition cut only ?




-- Edited by PetriK on Sunday 26th of December 2010 10:34:55 AM

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The MSD Launch Master i am using on my pro mod bike only cuts the ignition and works perfect i don't think the unburnt fuel will be an issue.

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PetriK wrote:

The easiest way with BKing would be to build a bking gauge emulator as an add on module to busa firmware and then flash the Busa ecu code to bking ecu ? That would be relatively easy if a bking gauge cluster would be available for some time.



Hi,
the Bk Ecu send 10Byte to the gauge:

Byte 1 = value for the CLt
Byte 2 = ? the value change between 0-64-128-192
Byte 3 = ? normal function every time 0
Byte 4 = normal function value = 0, value = 64 the FI-Light is on
Byte 5 = is this value not 0 the drive mode display is flashing
Byte 6 = Gear value 1.Gaer = 32 2.Gear = 64 3.Gear =96 4.=128 5.=160 6.=192
Byte 7 = Drive mode, value the same as Byte 8, Drive Mode A = 2 Drive Mode B = 4
Byte 8 = the same value as Byte 7
Byte 9 = ? normal function value = 0
Byte 10 = CRC

So i right in my mind the busa firmware send only 9 Byte to the gauge and display not every time the drive mode.

Boerd

 



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Thanks boerd, will look into the protocol later when have more time. Now looking at the two step limiter and 5bar boost sensor, then shall implement traction control algorithm.

About 2 step limiter - did two changes today:
1) Removed fuel limiter from clutched only limiter settings, so it now operates as ignition limiter only.
2) Changed clutched ignition limiter settings so that GPS error and Neutral will not cause limiter activation. Now it operates as clutched ignition limiter only.

Need to test this on the desktop first, then shall release the build for wider testing.




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The clutch only limiter is ready for testing.

Name: Hayabusa ECUeditor for K2-K7, K8- and BKing models
Version: 2.5.0.30
http://www.ecueditor.com


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Did some test today it worked fine but then i noticed that when engine is on heavy load with 3d,4,5,6 gear the engine stalls a bit in the area that the clutch limiter is set eg 5k 6k or wherever u set the clutch limiter.
Anyone else tested and noticed that?

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Thanks for the feedback, very valuable information as I have no possibility to test with 60cm snow (25") on the ground.

There is a an ignition limiter based on throttle opening that may interfere the logic here.

Can you estimate what was the throttle opening (just some rough idea) when you detected the surge ???

There are two options, either not to use this limiter - but then depending on how the 2 step limiter is used it may not work if throttle is not enough open. (could be a good feature though, to remind that throttle position)... or set the throttle position limit to a different position to activate this limiter.





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Changed the small TPS opening limiter as being part of the main limiters. That should not harm you anymore - but for launch the TPS is better of being more open than just a tiny bit.

Version: 2.5.0.51 is ready to be tested...

Edit - the way how I read the limiters there are three different types of limiters:
- Normal ignition limiter for clutched or non cluched engine - this is now the only limiter adjusted
- Small tps opening limiter (TPS < 2.5% if I read it right), which as stock is 11600 rpm. This was in previous versions set as clutched limiter level too. When active this overrides normal ignition limiter.
- idle limiter at around 2500rpm when engine is idling, set by several engine parameters that needed to be stabilized. When active this overrides both above limiters.

I can understand the logic by suzuki:
1) When idling, keep the engine below 2500 rpm if there is e.g. a vacuum leak
2) When TPS is almost closed, use the normal limiter - but just in case make it adjustable if you want to play with e.g. 5% TPS, 5000rpm type of a limiter. But thats not what we want as most likely its going to be a pinned throttle ?
3) Normal gear on and cluched limiters are the ones normally operational. Adjust these for top speed.

Happy new year... !

-- Edited by PetriK on Friday 31st of December 2010 10:20:17 PM

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Sounds logical PetriK. The 2 step will likely always be used at at least 50% throttle, and most will want to use 100% throttle. No need to worry about very small openings.

Happy New to You, I believe you have already made it into 2011 by this time!

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Yes, its 2011 and all quiet finally. In our country we are celebrating the new year with a lot of fireworks which are pretty noisy. Today we had 5 dogs (really!) at home who were quite a bit restless because of the fireworks - therefore not much celebrating for us on most of the new years eves due to the animalfamily reasons. Therefore this weeked is particularly good for new stuff development.






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Happy new year for everyone!!!

The surge was noticeable on any throttle position above 30 or 40%. i am going to test with the new version and report back very soon.

The weather here in Greece is nice at most of the year and i have access on many bikes and tracks so i can test any time just give me something to test and i will.

As always thanks Petrik for everything u give to all of us.

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TPS over 30-40, should not have affected that way.

Would it be possible that the .bin used contained some earlier settings that was tried out with a previous version. Maybe best to start with a clean known to be good .bin just to be sure.

Have fun ! Lets hope this is fixed, if not then time to dig even more deeper...


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I am always cooking new .bin files when updating editor cause if i don't usually i have rough idle situations.
This is something i recommend for everyone to do when updating editor to avoid any complications with previous build editor .bin files.

Tomorrow testing with new version the launch control and by the week i will test a bike i'm building with ss valves,65lbs springs,dual intake cams and the Bosch pump u suggested with nitrous progressive control and post some dyno facts.

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The fi light came on with the new version i will test with another bike and check if the wrong code is the same

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Matador wrote:

The fi light came on with the new version i will test with another bike and check if the wrong code is the same




Interesting - can not guess any reason why any FI light would come on after this change, but obviously everything is possible.



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Tested with 2 different bikes the fi was an iap sensor failure on the 1st bike nothing to do with the clutch limiter already fixed.
the problem with the surge on the rpms that i set the limiter stays on.

If i open the throttle 10-20% no problem anything above that even WOT you definitely feel the surge on the rpms i set the limiter,before and above that rpm(eg 5000) works perfect.
Same results on both bikes i tested.

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Could the 'idle' limiter be in there for overrun fuel cut-off to reduce emissions? Just a thought...

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Thanks for the feedback - I now need to do some more debugging of this issue...

I am also thinking of moving the 2 step limiter adjustment to the dragtools module just to keep things clean from basic user perspective - if no counterarguments.



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PetriK wrote:


Thanks for the feedback - I now need to do some more debugging of this issue...

I am also thinking of moving the 2 step limiter adjustment to the dragtools module just to keep things clean from basic user perspective - if no counterarguments.



Definitely Agree Petrik. As even when I first went to look For this Feature I was Confused for a Second on were it was Located. It kinda Blends in with the Regular engine Rev limiter.
Again, thank you for all you do Sir! smile

 



-- Edited by ToXSicK RoCKeT on Wednesday 5th of January 2011 01:49:38 PM

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2 step rev limit is a feature for drag racing, dragtools is the place to be.


-- Edited by Matador on Wednesday 5th of January 2011 02:36:29 PM

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Matador wrote:

2 step rev limit is a feature for drag racing, dragtools is the place to be.


-- Edited by Matador on Wednesday 5th of January 2011 02:36:29 PM



I agree with this.

Other potential future candidates could be:
tip over switch disable
Shift / launch Light control
Cooling fan temperature reduction
NLR SIM error code deactivation
Secondary injector disable
etc...

Might be a good way to clean up the general interface as well as keep those items aside for "advanced" use only for dragracing.

 



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Coming back to the 2step limiter surge issue, I would like to get more information. Sorry for asking basics - but I a bit lost right now what the cause could be. Its most likely something very simple, but need more information where to look at.

1) When bike at stand still is the limiter operational only when clutch is pulled ? or is it active all the time ?

2) Is the TPS adjusted correctly, i.e. enginedata showing 1.2% when idling ?

3) Is there any differences between gears

4) If i understand correctly:
- works ok when throttle is appr 20% or less ?
- when throttle is appr 20% or more there is a power surge (loss of power at around 5000rpm). this rpm moves with the adjustmen of the 2 step limiter ?

5) could you send me .bin where this issue is present

Will publis a new version now - this is just moving the functionality to dragtools module and some finetuning. not fixing the issue as such, but it may got fixed here if there was an error that I did not detect earlier.


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tried 2-step at 2 different rpm settings, foot shifting and found no problems...?...i have .csv files if that will help....?

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the shift problem was fixed when 2 step changed to only clutched.

stocker set the limit at 6k and open throttle from 4k or 5k with 3 or 4 gear u will notice a surge at 6k.
if u try it with 1 or 2nd gear u will not probably notice that cause the rpm goes up fast try with high gear and heavy load.

Petrik when bike at stand the limiter is operational only when clutch is pulled.

the TPS is correct and no differences between gears but it is really noticeable only from 3rd to 6th gear and yes this rpm moves with the adjustment of the 2 step limiters.

.bin sent it to you.

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i can try matador, the bike is still outside, but i had set it, and tested it at 5000, and 7000, and went wot 1st-6th, and also modulated it in 3,4,5 gears also...?....just came back from a ride set at 7000 and worked great....shifted through 4th hear at wot..

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that is a really strange thing i am going to full uninstall editor clean registry and then reinstall and try again.
if anyone else can test please do so we can sort this out.

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The uninstall should not affect this if your latest is the same as downloadfile in ecueditor.com download link page, there may be something in the .bin mapfile instead ?

Just try out with a file/new stock gen2 hayabusa and then setting the dragtools on again...



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The problem gone away i don't know how to explain it.

After uninstall did some registry clean up restarted installed again and everything works perfect!

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been testing all day, and it works great.....glad to hear your problem is gone matador.....biggrin

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