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Post Info TOPIC: Fuel injected 1127


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Fuel injected 1127


Can someone point me in the right direction.
I'm trying to get fuel injection running on my 1127 engine, I'm using a Busa 07 (us) ECU, with GSXR 600 TB's and loom which has been changed to match the Busa loom.
Also I have had a 24 tooth rotor made up and running a cam sensor which has been postioned 225 degrees past TDC #1.
This is where i'm at so far, I've got a good spark and the injectors are delivering fuel (to much at this stage) but all I seem to get is flames coming out the exhaust ( un-burned fuel).
A question I have is, even though I'm running a cam sensor, do I need to remove any teeth from the rotor to make it a 24-1 ect. If so which tooth/teeth do I remove.
My mate is going to hack the ECU when I've got it running.

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Yes 02-07 is 24-1
there is a thread here about converting a gen 1 to gen 2 ecu, in that is a pic of the crank rotor position at tdc

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Here is a pic of a 32-bit GSXR rotor.
$%28KGrHqV,!mEE1GCTmy!OBNZn,oZNhg~~0_12.JPG

I cant see it in the service manual where it says the missing teeth are supposed to be.  I would assuming the missing spline would indicate TDC.
It sounds to me like your ignition timing is retarded. If your bike is running it must be very close.
Your setup sounds unique so you might need to figure this out for yourself.
Your crank angle sensor could be in a different location compared to the busa so the busa specs would be irrelevant to your project.
I would suggest checking your timing with a timing light to see where its at.
Show us a picture of your rotor you have made, you didnt say whether or not you have a missing tooth or did you just make a star that has 24 teeth on it??
I counted 22 teeth on that one.

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Dave

Take a look at this .

You need a 24-1 tooth crank wheel

This is the timming and trigger wheel set up you need.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y250/zx10bud/rotorpick2.jpg

-- Edited by Zx10Bud on Monday 14th of March 2011 04:58:52 PM

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Hi, thanx for that, that would explain why it's not running then, i've been trying it with no teeth missing, I will let you know how I get on with it.

Thanx for your help

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Dave

Please let me know if I can be of help.

I have had gen 1 busa efi on my zzr1200 for the last 68,000+ miles. 

I no the pitfalls so please just ask.

Bud

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Hi mate, thanx for that, the problem I'm having at the moment is it won't run, it just seems to be flooding every time I try and start it, so I don't know if I've got something wrong with the setup or it's not starting because of the extra fuel going in.
I have removed a tooth as per your diagram, checked the cam sensor position with the tooth that I removed.

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Even at the ecu's stock settings it should not be to rich to run, it will be Way to rich but it should still run.

What flow rate are the injectors?

What year 600 throttle bodies are you running?

Have you verified your ignition timing with a timing light?

Are you running all stock hayabusa sensors?

Is your TPS calibrated?

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TB's and Injectors are from k3 600 flow rate 240cc/min
I have not verified the timing as not quite sure of the procedure.
I've not calibrated TPS, i will have to look into that.
Do all the sensors have to be from the Busa, I thought all suzuki sensors were the same.
I thought that I might have an air lock in the fuel pump which might be stopping the injector rail getting up to 43 psi.
Seems I've got alot to learn here.

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one of the problems I have, is that I am not running with a GSXR clocks. so I don't know what codes are showing, is there any other way of getting the codes, so I can find out which bit is wrong?

With all these problems, it makes me wonder weather it's worth just opting for a megasquit system.

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If you are using the 03 gsxr600 sensors thy should be just fine,the 03 600 injectors are the same part number as the hayabusa so thy are ok.

The tps is normally calibrated with the gsxr/busa clocks , but if you set the tps so that you have 1.10 volts on the output wire with the throttle closed you will be very close.

You can read the fault codes with ecu editor if you have the flashing interface.

to verify the timing you will need to fined and mark 1/4 tdc on your crank trigger wheel then use a timing light to se if it is firing just to the advance of that ,I cant give you an exact number of degrees because there are to many variables to the timing.


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OK mate I will give it a go, and set the TPS.
Thanx Dave

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Ok i've adjusted the TPS, it made some difference but still wouldn't start, it was trying to but just wouldn't start, next thing to check is the timing.
Because I'm using the coil sticks do I just clip the strobe light to the wire that feeds to coil? also I might have a problem with loosing oil when checking the timing as there is oil behind the rotor cover.

I have a question, what is the best way to check the cam sensors working correctly, because that would stop the engine from running?

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Yes clamp the timing light lead around the small wires going to the number one coil.

You will no doubt make an oil mess.

If you have spark the cam sensor is working.
the best test is peek voltage with the engine cranking .7 volts or more.

I would love to see some picks of your setup thay might help me with your problem as well.

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ok mate, I will check timing tomorrow, also will take some pictures of the set up, which bits do you want to look at?
Thanx Dave

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If your IAP intake air pressure sensor is not hooked up the nipple below the throttle so that it can see vacuum you will get a rich mixture and could cause your problem.


Mark

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Dave

As Busa Quick ask do you have the IAP hooked up to vacuum?

I would like to see some picks of

throttle bodies

sensor connection's and their mounting locations

fuel system / pump and regulator

cam and crank wheels

they will help me help you  allot!

Your friend

Bud

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Yep I have IAP connected to a vacumn hose, dose it matter which hose goes where? one thing i've noticed I have not got is the VC soliniod. Would this stop it running.

I'm running a stock early Busa external fuel pump with vacumn hose connected at the front of it.

Thanx for all the advice

-- Edited by Dave 1127 on Thursday 17th of March 2011 07:36:05 AM

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I've tried to check the timing, but because it won't start I can't set the RPM on the strobe light as all I can do is crank it over, on the picture of the rotor the black line is showing TDC #1  and the black line on the plate is showing 225 degrees past TDC #1 which is the position of the cam sensor.

Here is some pictures of my project
This is the ignition rotor, the black line is TDC #1



This is the ecu and APS



Right hand side TB's



Left hand side with air intake pressure sensor



CAM sensor position


Tip over sensor


Air intake temp sensor


Hoses coming from fuel pump


And a general view of the bike in early stages of the build




-- Edited by Dave 1127 on Thursday 17th of March 2011 11:58:01 AM

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Thanks for the pickssmile

Look like a cool project!!!!!

Ok just a few more questions

what is your crank trigger wheel to sensor gap

wear is your engine temp sensor located

is the IPS connected to all 4 throttle bodies it needs to be

what have you done with the gear position / neutral input


dose this motor have 4 or 8 lobe cams

are you using a cam lobe as your cam trigger pin / if so it won't work at high RPS

your friend
Bud



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Hi mate, this is the gear position sensor



The temp sensor is on the cam cover, probably not ideal but should give a good indication of engine temp.

The gap on my trigger wheel is .5 mm.
Just checked the IPS and it's only connected to 1, so I will change that.
Not using cam lobe for cam sensor, I have drilled a small hole in the cam shaft and put a small bolt in the shaft, which is less than a mm from the sensor. the cam has 4 lobes.
Hope this helps, I will swap the vacumn pipes
Thanx

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Looks a very interesting project, well get it running... surely.

We had the same with kawi project (a lot of flames and backfire but not running), that was just a problem with cam sensor in relation to missing tooth.

Maybe a starting point could be to check that the missing tooth is at the same position when cam sensor is in line with the cam pin, based on drawing it looks like it but not sure.

Then if thats ok, please check the pulse direction with scope, or just try reversing the crank sensor wires.

With busa it happened often that coils were not in correct places, i.e. 3&4 mixed. So maybe time to check that coil wiring is correct.

To check the errorcodes you can do with ecueditor, most of those (sensor related codes) can be displayed on the computer on the enginedata screen (also on gen1) - so it would be adviceable to check those just in case.

just one more additional note - I assume that this engine has same firing order as busa ? should be, but asking just in case.







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Dave 

connecting the IPS to all 4 throttle bodies is going to make it a bunch leaner . smile

I am not positive but I think you may have the temp sensors in opposite locations

for now while you getting it running connect the blue wire from the gear position sensor to ground that way the ecu will think the bike is in neutral.

After you get running I will show you how to use a TRE to make the ecu think its in neutral or 5Th gear.

Your cam trigger pin sounds good.

I would try to reduce the gap on your crank trigger to about .25 mm.

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PetriK

Good call on the crank reluctor polarity!

 voltage uotput should go high first then low.



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Zx10Bud wrote:

Dave 

connecting the IPS to all 4 throttle bodies is going to make it a bunch leaner . smile

I am not positive but I think you may have the temp sensors in opposite locations

for now while you getting it running connect the blue wire from the gear position sensor to ground that way the ecu will think the bike is in neutral.

After you get running I will show you how to use a TRE to make the ecu think its in neutral or 5Th gear.

Your cam trigger pin sounds good.

I would try to reduce the gap on your crank trigger to about .25 mm.



I have the gear sensor fitted and working, with neutral light, I will try and reduse the gap from the crank sensor, I do seem to have a good spark on all the stick coils,
Do you know if there are any difference between the US an GB busa ecu's, wiring wise, as I have US ecu but wired it up from GB wiring diagram. would this make any difference? Maybe coil wires may be different or injectors.

 



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Zx10Bud wrote:

PetriK

Good call on the crank reluctor polarity!

voltage uotput should go high first then low.



Good info, I will try that as well, also would this reversing polarity work on the cam sensor too

 



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Dave

there is no difference in the wiring that you will need to worry about

I would check to see if your firing order is the same as the busa tho

dose the gear position sensor you are using have the same resistance values as the hayabusa for all the gears?

Your cam position sensor wiring is the same colors as the busa just wire as indicated in the busa manual

Bud

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It seems the firing order for the busa is 1243 which is the same as the 1127.

-- Edited by Dave 1127 on Friday 18th of March 2011 08:01:33 AM

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Zx10Bud wrote:

Dave

there is no difference in the wiring that you will need to worry about

I would check to see if your firing order is the same as the busa tho

dose the gear position sensor you are using have the same resistance values as the hayabusa for all the gears?

Your cam position sensor wiring is the same colors as the busa just wire as indicated in the busa manual

Bud



The gear sensor is of the GSXR 1000 so should be good.

 



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I've swapped the crank wires moved the crank sensor to .25mm, tried to fire it up and got 2 big back fires with flames then it sounded like it was going to fire up then it just cranked over with no success.
But I think with all this cranking I think my battery is not up to it anymore, I'll get the jump leads out tomorrow and jump it from my car.
Still feels like it is still flooding.

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Sorry to say I think  have figured out you problem .


Your crank and cam trigger  timing is all wrong.

I think you looked at the pick of timing fazing i post and assumed you wear looking at the right side of the motor.

the pick I posted is from my Kawasaki and like the hayabusa has the crank trigger on the left side of the engine.

You would need to turn the pick over and look at it threw the papper to make it look correct.

1/4 tdc should be 8 teeth before the missing tooth not 15.

so sorry for the problem

Bud



-- Edited by Zx10Bud on Saturday 19th of March 2011 03:38:00 PM

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Zx10Bud wrote:

Sorry to say I think  have figured out you problem .


Your crank and cam trigger  timing is all wrong.

I think you looked at the pick of timing fazing i post and assumed you wear looking at the right side of the motor.

the pick I posted is from my Kawasaki and like the hayabusa has the crank trigger on the left side of the engine.

You would need to turn the pick over and look at it threw the papper to make it look correct.

1/4 tdc should be 8 teeth after the missing tooth not 15.

so sorry for the problem

Bud



Hi mate, on your diagram it says the missing tooth should be  8 teeth before TDC #1/4 not including the missing tooth, so the missing tooth will pass the pick up then I will have a further 8 teeth before  before TDC #1.
i will see if I can grind the welds off and rotate the rotor and then make another cam sensor pickup point to match the rotor



-- Edited by Dave 1127 on Saturday 19th of March 2011 10:34:24 AM

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Yes the diagram is corect.

I have edited my last post .


On you crank trigger wheel you could just make a second slot on the back for the crank pin.


Your friend
                   Bud

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Hi mate, I think I have sorted the rotor, just need to do a new cam sensor trigger point.
Thanx Dave

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I've changed the  crank trigger, rotated the crank so the missing tooth is level with the sensor, did the cam sensor, put it all back together again, tried to fire it up got 3 big back fires and flames out the exhaust but didn't fire up, now it just seems to be flooding, should I try and start it with choke on or off?
Not sure what to try next!
The only sensor that I don't have is the VC solinoid, would this stop it firing up?
Dave

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Do you have the cam pin lining up with the cam sensor wen cylinder #4 is on its compression stroke?

If not its not going to run.

If it is on cylinder #1 compression stroke , you can just invert 1-4 and 2-3  injector and ignition channels at the ECU connector.


                 Bud

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I will check mate, so i would have to swap the wires round for the injectors and coils.
Thanx

-- Edited by Dave 1127 on Sunday 20th of March 2011 05:11:07 PM

-- Edited by Dave 1127 on Sunday 20th of March 2011 05:27:42 PM

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FANTASTIC. it's alive, swapped the wires round fired up first time.

Thanx for all your info and patients you have given me. I can set about getting it set up now.

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Sweet!!!

Congratulations.


I knew you could do it,

Please lett me know If I can be of eney ferther help.


Your friend

Bud

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Thanx Bud, if i have the ECU hacked, will I have to have an o2 sensor fitted so he can tell how rich it's running?

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Dave

If you are going to have it dyno tuned thay should have an exauhst gas anelizer.


If you are going to tune it your self I would reamend LC1 O2 cable and a DL32 data logger frome

Innovate motorsports.

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ok mate thanx, might be better to go to dyno first to get it set up, then after that I can re tune/ hack the ecu at a later date.
It bloody typical, I get the bike running then notice a small injector leak, and can I find anywhere that sells the O rings.  I could get them ordered from a bike shop but they wanted nearly £7 each, robbing gits.

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Dave the o rings are a common 11mm o ring , any car place that tests injectors should have stock, also your nissan,subaru,mitsubishi dealer will have them.
nice job on the conversion :)

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Hi mate, thanx for the info, I will have a hunt round today for some o rings.

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Zx10Bud wrote:

Dave 

connecting the IPS to all 4 throttle bodies is going to make it a bunch leaner . smile

I am not positive but I think you may have the temp sensors in opposite locations

for now while you getting it running connect the blue wire from the gear position sensor to ground that way the ecu will think the bike is in neutral.

After you get running I will show you how to use a TRE to make the ecu think its in neutral or 5Th gear.

Your cam trigger pin sounds good.

I would try to reduce the gap on your crank trigger to about .25 mm.


 Hi mate, took the bike out for it's first run today, it bogs down below 4000RPM then starts to pick up, smells very rich on tick over.

I've had to go with just a neutral switch sensor rather than the gear position sensor as it was leaking and I tried to tighten it up and snapped on ot the lugs off.

The TRE you are on about, I have one which came off a GSXR 600, dose it have to be a Busa specific TRE or will the 600 one still work.

Dose this just plug into the gear position sensor plug?

This is the TRE i have

 

 

 



-- Edited by Dave 1127 on Tuesday 29th of March 2011 04:40:57 PM



-- Edited by Dave 1127 on Tuesday 29th of March 2011 04:43:34 PM

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This is a bit of a long shot, but is there a map for using a Busa ECU on a 1127 suzuki engine?



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If I remeber correctly the TRE is just a 6.8k ohm resistor. I know it is a resistor just the 6.8K part I not 100% on.

  As far as fuel mapping the easiest thing to do would be change the fuel pressure/injector size adjustment "tell it you have higher pressure/bigger injector size"  in the editor until you get a good idle that seems to be not too rich or lean. By doing that I think it will make the whole map closer to your engine size.

 

Mark

 

 

 



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OK mate thanx, so they are pretty much the same then.

I've not had any experience with Hacking or telling the ecu to change settings, so not sure how to do this.



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I've contacted a Dyno centre call Torque tune in Ollerton, they say they can re-map the ECU, I think he said they will use a Yoshi box, so booked in tomorrow.

Fingers crossed for a good result.



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May not have enough range for your needs , but altering your fuel pressure and using the yosh box may get it close , Good luck :)

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