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Post Info TOPIC: Live tuning VS Auto tune.....


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Live tuning VS Auto tune.....


Hi guys, i have been reading from this forum for far to long with out posting, mostly because i felt lost in the welth of information around...

Quick intro about myself:

I am a firstly a Mechanic with 15+ years of experience on both cars & bikes. Specialising in performance engine building / blueprinting / EFI system fitting, tuning or more recently Reflashing for NA, turbo'd, supercharged & NOS setups(both cars & bikes)

Enough about me & on to the serious stuff...

I work for a company Called Tokyo Motorsports in Perth, Western Australia, We have been reflashing Mitsubishi EVO's & the V35/V36 skyline's & 350/370z more recently delving into Suzuki motorcycles.  Both the mitsubishi & nissan software have the ability to live tune. (mitsubishi software is openecu)(nissan software is Uprev)

Anyone with with enough tuning exp will know that live tuning is by far the most effective & accurate way of building a satisfactory fuel & ignition map for any given application, due to the ability to see gains or losses even with the smallest changes without the chance of other affecting factors changing the results.

I will be honest with everyone, i do not even pretend to know how to program software, but being able to use live tuning software on ECU's fitted to factory vehicles makes tuning much less time consuming & much more accurate, & a better end result to our customers.

Given all the above "drible" i would like to put it out there to the Software guy's...      I & hopefully many other professional tuners would really like to see real time / live tuning added to the ECU editor software.

I would be more than happy to give as much help & information as i can to get this function added . I believe if it can be done with Mitsi's & Nissans it can be done with the Bikes. 

Hope this takes less time to read as it took to right........

 



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The limitations to real time tuning are due to the ECU design. The only scenario I can see working is to modify the bin to set up ignition and fuel offset maps in RAM. While the engine is running have a PC/Laptop communicate with the ECU and modify these offset tables. The PC software keeps a virtual copy of the offset maps locally. Once the tuner has the bike tuned to his satisfaction he turns the bike off, the PC software then combines the original bin and the virtual offset maps into a new bin that gets flashed into the ECU.

How well it works depends on how much unused RAM is available for ignition and fuel offset maps. A typical fuel map is 2200+ bytes, a ignition map is 800+. That is 3000 bytes for a single fuel, ignition set. Of course this could be reduced by doing partial maps.

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Buy an Interceptor fuelling box that allows live tuning, and auto tune for that matter. Once you have the desired results work out a conversion and update the ECU accordingly.

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asanyfuleno wrote:

Buy an Interceptor fuelling box that allows live tuning, and auto tune for that matter. Once you have the desired results work out a conversion and update the ECU accordingly.


 You could do the same with Power Commander maps but I think that misses the point.

The piggy back systems have only allowed people to live tune fuel for so long that I think many have forgotten about ignition and/or secondary throttle. We know the factory use these maps to de-tune the engine. Re-tuning it would be a lot easier if you could edit them live.



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RidgeRacer wrote:
The piggy back systems have only allowed people to live tune fuel for so long that I think many have forgotten about ignition and/or secondary throttle. We know the factory use these maps to de-tune the engine. Re-tuning it would be a lot easier if you could edit them live.

 

Of course it misses the point but isn't the point that you can't given the hardware constraints of the current range of ECUs?



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I guess my original post came across more negative than I intended. I think rewriting the ECU software to allow live tuning is very doable. Not a walk in the park, but definitely doable.

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Hi guys, glad this post has got some ppls attention..

The reason I/we would like to see live tuning in the software is 2-fold.

Firstly, Instead of auto tune...

With auto tune, we are trying to interface an external module (WB02) to an ECU that was never intended to see that signal, add that to logging software created for the ECU(which was not intended to see WB02), combine that with not knowing what other fueling maps are being overlaid to get the actual measured WB02 (accel enrich, air / water compensation...ect) and finally add in an unmeasurebale amount of delay between the O2 sensor - WB02 module - ECU - logging software..... and then to top it all off, taking multiple individual cells samples and giving a average representation.

Secondly, The idea behind remapping the factory ecu first & foremost is to save paying for an extra (box) allowing tunability,What would be the point of buying a PC3/5..ect for each bike to be tuned then only use it on the dyno & then spend extra time trying to inIterpolate the map over to the factory ecu map.   

It also eliminates all of the things i mentioned above (overlapping modules / maps) Specially on any bike running closed loop fuel / ignition control. (add fuel with PC3/5 factroy ecu looks at O2 sensor whilst crusing, sees rich mixture & starts pulling fuel, defeats the purpose dont u think? not to mention it will be lean next time unitl ecu adds fuel back in..)

Ridgeracer: i will post up an extract from the Uprev software instructions hopefully that gives u more info on how they do it, it sounds very much like what u mentioned in your first reply. I would be very interested in helping you or your colleuges in testing a live tuning feature. As a workshop we have access to full in-house dyno facillity & test bikes.



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UPREV INFO:

Understanding the ECU architecture and how UpRev modified ROMs work.
Before we get into how to tune using Osiris you need to have a basic understanding of the ECU architecture.
At the core of the ECU is a processor that uses 3 types of memory:
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Flash-ROM (internal to the processor). This is Read Only Memory, where the ECU stores its operating software as well as the tables that are used to calibrate/tune the ECUs operation. This area can only be written to via an ECU reflash (Osiris). The flash memory has a limited number of rewrites that can be preformed before the memory starts to degrade. Once the flash memory has begun to degrade the ECU will have to be replaced. A minimum of 200 flashes can be preformed according to the CPU data sheet, but twice that is likely possible (we flashed the ECU on our development 350Z more than 400 times without any memory degradation).
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RAM (internal to the processor). This is Random Access Memory (read and write) that the ECU software uses to store variables that change in real time such as sensor readings, environmental conditions and changes over time, as well as calculated values that are used for the software control models that manage engine operation.
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Non-volatile EEPROM (external from the processor). This non volatile memory is used to store things like idle adjustments, ignition adjustments, learned idle air volume, VIN, and other static values that vary from vehicle to vehicle. You should not have to deal with the EEPROM, but its good to know its there.
The most important feature that UpRev adds to a ROM when it is patched is taking the critical tables that are used for tuning (ie fuel, ignition, throttle, rev/speed limits, etc) and modifying the ECU software so that it loads these tables into RAM and looks the tables up out of RAM as opposed to the flash memory. This relocation of the critical tables allows for real time tuning (RTT) without the need to reflash the ECU for every adjustment. It also makes map switching possible since the values can be changed on the fly.
Due to limited RAM space on the ECU, there are certain data values and tables that have to remain static and cannot be placed in RAM for RTT, such as target idle rpm and cam advance. These values can only be changed via modifying the ROM and doing a reflash. These static tables/values cant be changed via map switching either.
Another UpRev ROM feature is the addition of map switching and storage space for alternate maps. Map switching allows for multiple maps to be stored in the flash memory so that they can be loaded into RAM at the users request (via cruise control switches).
It is important to note that the only the tables that are loaded into RAM can be changed via map switching. That means only the real time tunable tables are updated when a map is switched. The static tables/values, such as target idle rpm and cam advance, can not be changed via map switching.
There is also a second type of OsirisROM, the Loader ROM. The Loader ROMs have real time tuning disabled. If you have concerns about someone with access to real time tuning getting access to your tunes, then you should port the tunes into a Loader ROM for the final flash when you are done with your tuning session. The Loader ROMs have the real time tuning features disabled so that a third party cant connect to the ECU and get a copy of the tune via real time tuning.

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