Members Login
Username 
 
Password 
    Remember Me  
Post Info TOPIC: E85 Conversion


Veteran Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 38
Date:
E85 Conversion


Hi, New to this motor and software. I have converted several GM motors over to E85 with EfiLive LSJ and LSx and LSJ with HPtuners. I bought a second hand Radical with a 1300R from a race shop. I had the engine builder convert to E85 after he rebuilt the motor. He used PC USB upping the fuel pressure and upping the fueling values. This is usually a frowned practice in the LSx world. This seemed to work reasonable well, and made +1Hp from 110 octane that he was used to.

 

Last event due to a unseen exhaust leak it melted the PC #1 injector harness which seemed to fubar the #1 injector driver on the main ECU.

 

So short story long, I'm replacing with new main ecu and new main harness and would rather ditch PC and use ecueditor and the woolich datalogger. With the LSx it's pretty straight forward replace target stoich to preferred fuel ratio, change injectors to ID1000's (insert super accurate numbers they provide) and if you have enough fuel flow capacity, you are very much in the ball park for E85 conversion. No monkeying around with pressures or jacking with the VE table.

 

Is there a recommended process to do this with this motor/software? I'm thinking the following.. (and summarizing from PetriK's E85 and flexfuel thread).

 

1)Putting the fuel pressure back to 43psi (have plenty of upgraded pump).

 

2) Changing values under 50, to 50 in the injector balance map. Hoping the bottom injector will help out more and the top injector won't go static making the bottom artificially carry more, in the case of PC.

 

3) Increasing VE entire values in the fuel maps +33% to make the motor think it's 33% bigger to to flow 33% more fuel since (I don't think) I can change target stoich (which I assume is set to petrol). 

 

Harness suppose to be here mid week, I need to shake out next weekend and track day the following. Back up plan is to go back to PC but would rather not.

 

Guidance from those who have traveled the E85 path before me?



__________________
Turning money into smoke and noise since 2006


Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 1247
Date:

Since you have the Woolich Racing Log Box, get a wideband o2 sensor and controller and hook it up. Change the tables as you noted (although I would start out a bit richer than theoretical), run teh engine, and log the data. Once you get some data, run it through autotune using the same target "air fuel" that you would if tuning with gasoline.

You may need to mess with the maps down low to get it to run / idle at first.

__________________


Veteran Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 38
Date:

Thanks, fortunately since this is a throttle position vs rpm table system, previous events my AIM steering wheel captured that plus the WB signal. I download and wash though a spreadsheet that gives me delta % change amounts per cell. Couple of washes and it's dialed. This is a track only car so I can only collect data while on track.

Hoping the way I'm thinking will get me in the ball park to start, once runnable/safe I can scrub. I'm basically skinning the cat from another direction than the other guy did with PC.

Also agree with running fat to lean, have thought about initially leaving or only halving fuel pressure reduction and if globally fat reduce until close. Pump (external pump and regulator) should be happier at 43 instead of 65. Hoping that should show up pretty quick.

I've found the more numbers you can set to the factory (correct) settings the more correct the math behind the curtain is.

__________________
Turning money into smoke and noise since 2006


Veteran Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 38
Date:

Got the car to run pretty much straight away. Started with VE tables and with 65psi was 12.5 petrol equivalent. Lowered fuel pressure to 43 and it came in line to 14.6. I guess they idle this motor at lambda 1? Seems too lean (hot) for my liking. Raised fuel pressure to 45 to give me some head room at load.

Fattened idle up to about 13:1 (petrol equivalent) added a few degrees timing. Seems to like more than 5* timing at idle. Seems way low from what I'm used to. Under bonnet temps seems much happier running some more timing and fatter. Throttle much crisper.

Track day this coming weekend to dial in off idle values. This software rocks!

__________________
Turning money into smoke and noise since 2006


Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 1247
Date:

Glad you got it up and running. Let us know how it goes once you get the rest of it tuned in.

__________________


Veteran Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 38
Date:

Fiddled with it some more tonight. The motor never started well, worse when hot. 24v starter spins the snot out of it but would like a bit of throttle to start. Usually there is a cold start and a warm start strategy table. Seeing none I assume it may be starting under petrol (not well if lean) then handing off to modified VE table that is more suitable to E85.

Discovered that STP at 500@8 was 100% and once fired went to 10%. So I made 500@8 = 10% as well. Figured if it's good enough to run it must be good enough to start. It's much better and will cold and warm start with no throttle input. I see no reason to be 100 at cranking speed but left at 100% > 30 for flood clear.

May play with crank timing some more, has very low timing from what I'm used to. E85 is some less volatile so more baulky to start, worse when cold. But at least starts now without driver input, which can be a pain if full body on and outside of driver's seat.



-- Edited by Positron on Wednesday 8th of August 2012 03:09:13 AM



-- Edited by Positron on Wednesday 8th of August 2012 03:10:01 AM

__________________
Turning money into smoke and noise since 2006


Senior Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 170
Date:

The cold start and warm start is based off temperature of the engine. When the bike thinks its cold It just converts the fuel numbers but you are right. There are no separate tables for cold and warm start.

__________________


Veteran Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 38
Date:

NorthTitan 33- Thanks, also having control of the 60c thermostat also seems to help in my application.

Ran Fontana on Saturday, it was flipping hot at 106. Two corner workers had to be taken to the hospital for heat exhaustion. That was a good time to call it a day.

First session the car ran rich, as warned, about 12.5 (petrol) at 50/50. Leaned it up for second session, was better but when I got off I apparently backfired the supertrapp and shifted the internal piece sideways. I think it must have backfired when rich during ignition cut off during one of the flatshift upshifts.

Third session took it off it was too lean at Lambda 1 most likely because of the excessive restriction of the failed poot can and previous revision. Was testing with supertrapp because stock muffler is 96dB and Laguna Seca is a strict 92. I guess I should have gotten close first and then put on, but I'm here now.

So I'm at least close and have control, have found and intercepted WB 0-5v signal and am going to run concurrently to steering wheel data logger and Woolich Racing Log Box.

Still stumped on why going to 50/50 is greatly richer, the math says it should the same. Are the upper and lower injector unequal sizes or is there that much magic in the lower injectors? If I can figure out which part of the math is changing I could probably adjust to 60/40 so the table is somewhat linear. Ideal would make the uppers not exceed about 80% IDC especially if there is some magic in the tunnel ram effect. Strange part they just abruptly change from 47 to 20.

Have not studied my data logs to see what percent differential the various areas have changed. The upper 50/50 have a larger change.



-- Edited by Positron on Tuesday 14th of August 2012 04:56:36 AM

__________________
Turning money into smoke and noise since 2006


Veteran Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 38
Date:

Ran another test day Saturday, fuel dialed right in after 3 washes. Doing several things all at once like bedding in brakes, playing with shift kill, it likes both fuel and ign. Still having some trouble with 4/5 false neutral but it's better.

Test day so not much exciting, was there for laps not world record or break things before schedule event next weekend.

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/yiYprTWkznFZHE1_GAvIr8okeXW0GgD1LDYIHZ4jfaw?feat=directlink



__________________
Turning money into smoke and noise since 2006


Veteran Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 38
Date:

Fighting a on idle lean situation that seems to be getting somewhat worse, however it could be exacerbated as the weather is getting colder. Clears up as soon as off idle or at very warm run temps.

I have ICS software disabled, do we know where stepper motor would park when disabled? Last key off position? Closed? I'm wondering if it's not somehow open at some last know position giving me some unaccounted for air?
Otherwise car pretty well dialed in fuel wise under run condition.

 

Last time out

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/m40ufgWkdn4vUlqdPlihT8aX4lFAr74iu89yiSgzWwA?feat=directlink


fixed link



-- Edited by Positron on Friday 11th of January 2013 03:56:37 AM

__________________
Turning money into smoke and noise since 2006


Senior Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 109
Date:

Have you got the PAir ports blocked off in the head (or cam cover)?

If not the reed valves bleed air into the exhaust causing it to APPEAR lean at the lambda sensor, but the burn may not actually be lean.

I'd be very careful using a SuperTrap on the exhaust too, I've seen way too many pistons that have picked-up on the bores with those things on the exhaust.

On some cars I've had to set the shift cut longer on 4th-5th shifts (90ms seems OK with a stick-shift) for some reason and that seems to cure the false neutral issues. Are you using the stick to shift or a paddle system of some sort?

__________________


Veteran Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 38
Date:

Thanks for the reply.

PAir Ports blocked on head and all lines removed and software off. Found that even if ICS software off it is drawing air from atmosphere tube, I've turned on since I'd rather it do what it's suppose to.

Also having a weird lean >17:1 while cranking. Like it's not fueling during the crank cycle but with a shot of starting fluid will then fire. Which I'd like not to get in a habit of doing. Like it's not fueling until a certain rev. I have a 24v cranking system so it's spinning the snot out of it. Another strange thing is while running if I kill motor by putting my thumb on ICS inlet hose it will go rich and die, if I don't cycle ignition it will fire right up. If I kill with ignition it goes lean on lambda readout and is hard to start, sometimes if I "choke" it by putting my finger on ICS inlet hose it will fire. Like the ICS is going open during the crank no matter how fast I cycle the ignition. With the ICS out when I cycle the key it full strokes full extend/retract/full extend. Most likely calibration stroke distance, I don't know if it does this every time or will it learn and know where to start. I think I'm in the right area because once up to full temp it's better and running anything off idle (throttle open) it comes in line. I first was thinking it was a cold start table that I couldn't richen for E85 but if I thumb kill it it first straight away. Something with ign off..

I removed and cleaned carbon off the ICS barrel and polished barrel and seems to be better. I think I need to figure out in which order I need to reset the ICS after doing all this. This weekend I'm going to reset straight away then change the idle by some amount and see if I'm out of sorts with removal and resetting.

I'm losing something in the translation with "picked up on the bores," is that piston to cylinder wall transfer/scuffing? Isn't that a result of over/high cylinder/piston temps? Obviously not wanting to run restricted, I have a 96dB muffler and Laguna Seca has a strict 92dB with future events as low as 90dB which is going to be tough to meet even with some stock vehicles. Running 1.5 times more disks than they say is necessary to flow as much as possible, something in the order of 18 disks. Pretty sure some are trying to kill the sport.

Had transmission rebuilt, I had some damage to dogs, most likely caused by my car mounting procedure. A combination of things caused me to have to run the car way in advance of going on track to get the oil temp >160F to keep under 100psi (dry sump). I have electric throw solenoid paddle shifter that the paddles are very sensitive. Pretty sure I've accidentally touched the paddles jumping car in gear while stationary. I'm sure this trans package doesn't like dead shifting a 900#car with a fat man inside. Seems to like 50-60ms dead time. The system I have had both a up kill but only ign, I've disregard the up kill in favor of the ecueditor fuel & ign which has a more definite kill, but keeping the mechanical down throttle blip, so it's a up and down no lift paddle system. Really nice when all things line up. I've just recently put in a factory pro shift star that is suppose to change the shift cam profile, added a oil tank heater, changed my mount procedure and hoping that helps.

__________________
Turning money into smoke and noise since 2006


Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 1247
Date:

Are there any codes being displayed when looking at the engine data?

The inability to start almost seems like the fuel pump is not priming properly. If you have a fuel pressure gauge, where is the fuel pressure set when you turn the key on, just prior to starting?



When using alcohol, you likely would benefit from a longer prime pulse prior to startup. I woudl assume the prime pulse duration is located somewhere in the code, but I am not aware of its location or ability to modify it.

If there is in fact a prime pulse and fuel pressure is adequte, try cycling the key a few times prior to a cold start. This would simulate a longer prime pulse.

__________________


Veteran Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 38
Date:

No codes. I was getting an intermittent P1650 ign lock (race car with ign switch) after a flash but I think I was having a connectivity issue while flashing. I'm going to start with a fresh bin file this weekend to make sure some bits didn't get left behind. There was another post around here about not having idle control until he start anew.

Set at 45psi as logged from AIM EV04 with manual set regulator, all previous logs show steady 45 psi throughout power range.

If there is a prime selection, I can't find it. I agree, it would certainly help to have a larger prime with E85. As I understand it, (from memory) on ign on it'll fire all 4 injectors to prime then cycle injectors in their turn. It won't cycle again until after a run cycle, so cycling ign won't prompt another prime. I guess as not to cause a flood situation from multiple ign cycles. Pretty much if it doesn't fire straight away grinding on it longer doesn't help.



__________________
Turning money into smoke and noise since 2006


Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 546
Date:

Your cranking injector on time is probably not enough for your fuel needs with std injectors, i have tried methanol in my bike with only an injector change , injectors were sized for the difference in needs between pump gas and methanol, roughly 2,5 times bigger, it fires and runs from cold without issue (was using some pretty high powered coils for ign )
if your fuel pressure is stable at cranking and still giving trouble you may try to use fuel pressure as the compensation for fuel type , and raise your base pressure

__________________


Veteran Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 38
Date:

Thanks, I compensated overall with standard fuel pressure, figured the fuel pump and injectors would be happier at normal pressures with larger VE values ie longer injector on times, which lined up ok at load. May be a compromise of fuel increase fuel pressure at such low pulse width at those low rpm may be in order.

I'll crank up and see this weekend. It's not suppose to be as cold but will be a good test.

__________________
Turning money into smoke and noise since 2006


Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 1247
Date:

If all else fails, you coudl wire in a NC momentary switch to your injector grounds, isolating them either via a 4 pole switch or perhaps some diodes and give the button a tap while cranking.

May not be the most elegant method, but it would do the job...

__________________


Veteran Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 38
Date:

Now I like that, I think even one will be enough. I have spare momentary button contacts on my fancy steering wheel. Beats the heck out of a shot of ether, it doesnt take much. If it's speed related it just has to get above cranking speed which is about 800. If you can get one to fire it'll carry over.

I'm thinking one may best anyway hard to have a flood situation with just one. Could even be an upper to make things simple. I'll add to my tests this weekend.

__________________
Turning money into smoke and noise since 2006


Veteran Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 38
Date:

Maj750 wrote:

Your cranking injector on time is probably not enough for your fuel needs with std injectors, i have tried methanol in my bike with only an injector change , injectors were sized for the difference in needs between pump gas and methanol, roughly 2,5 times bigger, it fires and runs from cold without issue (was using some pretty high powered coils for ign )
if your fuel pressure is stable at cranking and still giving trouble you may try to use fuel pressure as the compensation for fuel type , and raise your base pressure


That's really the right way to go then all ratio's are correct. Something else to try maybe is going back to standard plug and running just a smidge on the smaller gap range. I'm running one step colder NGK mainly habit from forced induction days. Do standard coils through a pretty hot spark on this motor, might be a little lazy with this fuel?

 

Well it's starting better, but not entirely sure why. I bet I've flashed it a hundred times today trying every variant I can think of. 

Best so far was starting with a Woolich virgin .bin file and converting to E85. Would idle but needed some bit of manual throttle to start cleanly. I could not get ISC to control idle at 1000 or 1800, resetting before, not at or or after. Seemed to idle around 1200 with manual adjust fully released. I tried ISC hose open, fully blocked with add'l manual throttle, a plug with various orifices. All needed varying amounts of either blocking ics hose or manual throttle to start.

Even with software off if  you cycle ign too quickly it would lean stumble until it gets into position. Last version best so far, I removed ISC and did one last polish on barrel. So maybe barrel not extending to correct position. Does this thing cycle every ign cycle, seems like it would learn unless my ign is killing ecm incorrectly.

Even if ISC software off it cycles with ign turned on, so it must just ignore a code for those who completely remove and not mechanically disable?

Will fiddle with some tomorrow with a cold/fresh start, I can live with manual input, although prefer not to take of rear bodywork or mount car to start. Seems ok once it hands off from start strategy to run tables.




-- Edited by Positron on Tuesday 22nd of January 2013 04:52:19 AM

__________________
Turning money into smoke and noise since 2006


Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 546
Date:

standard coils are fine till you fit a turbo
options then are a NLR sim to boost the ign power, there very good
and i have one bike running on the AEM dumb coils , that seems ok so far

i think the ISC tick box only disables the fault warning if you were to unplug it and use a manual idle speed control from an earlier model motor



-- Edited by Maj750 on Monday 21st of January 2013 08:59:53 PM

__________________


Veteran Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 38
Date:

Thanks that's what it seems to be doing.

Does this thing (ISC) take a while to learn last run park position ie would I normally have to drive around some period for it to learn? Hard to do with a track only car and no place to go. Seems to cycle each ign cycle.

Didn't get to up pressure today, (on board camera showed up) started straight away this morning but as the day got warmer it took input. Which tells me it's close if it's trying to enrichen when cold and less as the day/engine warmed up.

__________________
Turning money into smoke and noise since 2006


Veteran Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 38
Date:

 

Picking up here as not to continue to hijack another's thread..


I'm having no luck with idle command change either, however in my application it always thinks it in 5th gear clutch engaged. Could the cold start/ idle strategy only work in neutral and not upper gears/clutch engaged?

Are you finding that the commanded idle works in all gears once commanded?

If so I can figure a way to get it back to think it's always in neutral and map accordingly if it will help starting and some idle command issues.

Data shows Clutch "Out" and wire goes nowhere and if I'm reading the schematic right, it thinks it's engaged. So as far as the ECM is concerned it already in the run position. I'll have to ground (Gen 2) this wire 60 B/Y and see if it activates a cold start strategy. Now hopefully it doesn't need to see that it's in neutral. Assuming it's been forced into 5th by a resistor.

What I'm also thinking to vet out is, not only is the clutch position been disconnected the start button signal to ecm #42 Y/G is disconnected. I found the attached on the Gen 1 manual and wondering if it doesn't know if it's being started (either some combination of clutch in/ starting signal) it's not prefiring all injectors first round? Seems to follow my symptoms with a lean start then runs after it finally comes around. If I knew which one was triggering (clutch or start signal) I could trigger a relay to simulate same.

 

Injection timing.jpg



-- Edited by Positron on Wednesday 30th of January 2013 04:40:24 AM

Attachments
__________________
Turning money into smoke and noise since 2006


Veteran Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 45
Date:

    Positron,    Give this a try,  Take the clutch switch wire Black/Yellow, and splice it in to the neutral wire Blue, Take the starter wire Yellow/Green and either splice it in to the switched side of your starter circut or attach it to the starter motor,  When its in neutral the ECU will think that the clutch is pulled in and when you put it in gear the ECU will think that the clutch is out,  The momentary 12v on the Yellow/Green will activate the cold start sequence,  I have done this, It works.

 

    Red Racer 1



__________________


Veteran Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 38
Date:

Copy, thanks.
Sounds like its expecting all three, clutch, neutral and starter power.

I'll give it a whirl, hoping to solve a most annoying condition.
In my application, fuel pump, start button, starter circuit (24v), are all out of the main harness circuit. Will be a simple matter to put in a relay triggered by starter button (12v relay) to validate ECM.
Thanks for the help!

__________________
Turning money into smoke and noise since 2006


Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 546
Date:

Have you fitted a resistor to simulate 5th or have you inherited it ?
you may want to put it back to standard and make use of the ram air mapping in the higher gears and eliminate the possibility its influencing your results

__________________


Veteran Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 38
Date:

Inherited, only reason I know is from logged data.

My assumption it was done that way is because previous owner/shop programmed with PC USB to single source out variables of the lower gears and other limiting factors of PC. In this application if they couldn't get to or want to fiddle with the lower gear restrictions I can see how they'd want it all in all gears. Especially since we don't have an issue with pulling superman wheelies in first gear.

I'll have to see if harness goes that far or was truncated with resistor. Would I just be better to turn off ram air, I'm not really seeing any value change in data, even though I have a big ass ram scoop, and deal with in VE table? Shouldn't hurt to be a little rich in lower gears to be spot on in higher speeds revs. If I'm doing it right I should have very little cruise steady state driving. Should be mostly WFO or on the brakes with some maintenance throttle through the turn. Or at least what brain is commanding tempered by size of man marbles for that particular situation.

__________________
Turning money into smoke and noise since 2006


Veteran Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 38
Date:

Does cold start disengage by coming out of neutral? Trying to figure out if it can be momentary with start button or has to have some time in neutral. Or temp based? Trying to figure out much I have to wire.

__________________
Turning money into smoke and noise since 2006


Veteran Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 45
Date:

Positron,   Cold start disengages when the starter button is released,  In the motorcycle the clutch switch completes the circut for the starter relay and also puts the ECU in to the neutral map, 

 

   Red Racer 1

 

   



__________________


Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 1247
Date:

Red Racer 1 wrote:

Positron,   Cold start disengages when the starter button is released,  In the motorcycle the clutch switch completes the circut for the starter relay and also puts the ECU in to the neutral map, 

   Red Racer 1


 Red,

    Do you have information to support this? Specifically, do you have the address locations for the cold start enrichment for the ecu? If so we may be able to tap into them to alter for different applications.

 

John



__________________


Veteran Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 38
Date:

I'm not getting how long it stay in that mode, I can see that the starter button imitates it.

I thought it enrichened/raised idle until something happens. Seems like it'd be some temp or put in gear. I'd assume if it raised the cold idle they wouldn't want a raised idle on/between gears.

__________________
Turning money into smoke and noise since 2006


Veteran Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 45
Date:

  Sorry, I dont have concrete information to support my statement,  I have a friend who used to work for Suzuki and his explanation was that when you pushed the start button and the clutch was pulled in the first few revolutions of the engine the injectors squirted more fuel than what the engine normally idles with to make the engine start faster.  Then as the water temp warms up and gets to about 180 degrees f the ECU switches to the normal operating mode.  

  I am not a computer guy so addresses and codes are way over my head, I have to leave that up to the big guys,  But I have modified most of the wire harnesses that are used in motorcycle engine powered race cars in the SCCA and I have set them up using the cold start wires and not using the cold start wires,  The engines do start alot better when the wires are active, (especially Hayabusa's)  When the engines are warming up on the dyno I can here a distinct difference in the engine when the water temp opens the thermostat the first time.   This is why I made the earlier statement,  If I am wrong  I'm sorry

 

   Red Racer 1



__________________


Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 1247
Date:

No Problem red, I was just hoping someone had the areas in the code identified for enrichment

__________________


Veteran Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 38
Date:

Short story.. it's much better.

Learned a few things, wired up so that it thinks it's in neutral and clutch in when in neutral and with double throw relay it switches back to what it thinks is 5th gear when not in neutral, added start button signal to ecm. Gear position switch has been hijacked to dash display but I'm using the neutral position to trigger relay.

Starts when cold, fattens up until warm, advances idle and I now have control of idle with idle valve.

Another thing I found out it doesn't like having ecm memory after main disconnect, after a while when disconnected would throw the ign lock code and not start so now it's direct to battery power with 2 amp fuse to retain memory. Started this morning after main disconnect off overnight.

If I quick start it after shutting it off the idle valve is in a lean condition and it will stumble until it finds where it wants to be. Hoping with ecm on battery memory it will learn or retain where the run position should be rather than parking then motoring to run position. If I'm patient and wait until the count of about 5 after ignition on it'll go there and then start fine.

All in all, much improved. Track day next weekend to sort out a few other things and try out new aim bullet cam.

Thanks to all for the assist!

__________________
Turning money into smoke and noise since 2006


Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 1247
Date:

Sounds like you've made progress.

I'm not sure that having an ecm memory will do anything at all with these ECU's, as I don;t think they have any sort of "block learn" capability as with most automobiles.

I always try to wait a few seconds after throwing the switch on my bike, at least until the fuel pump cycles.

Eventually, learning teh areas of the ECU that are controlling the warm-up cycles as well as air temperature enrichment would be of benefit for applications lie this as well as turbocharged applications with potentially high intake temps.

__________________


Veteran Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 38
Date:

What if you moved the air box temp sensor to post compressor? Don't know if it would have enough range but it would/should enrichen some until it tops out. ie I wouldn't think they would expect a NA air box to get over 200F.

My supercharged GM motor has a pre and post sensor to do what your talking about.

__________________
Turning money into smoke and noise since 2006


Veteran Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 38
Date:

sportbikeryder wrote:

Sounds like you've made progress.

I'm not sure that having an ecm memory will do anything at all with these ECU's, as I don;t think they have any sort of "block learn" capability as with most automobiles.

I always try to wait a few seconds after throwing the switch on my bike, at least until the fuel pump cycles.



I think your right again, no start issue was not caused by memory power, rather a loose/intermitent pin connection critical to confirm start.

Seems it just wants to cycle the idle valve to start properly. Starts now without provocation on E85 in almost any temp.



-- Edited by Positron on Sunday 10th of March 2013 04:01:10 PM

__________________
Turning money into smoke and noise since 2006


Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 1247
Date:

which wire was the culprit?

__________________


Veteran Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 38
Date:

21 black coupler.

__________________
Turning money into smoke and noise since 2006


Veteran Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 38
Date:

I've got another strange one. I sent my throttle bodies off to help a friend because I had what appeared to be a newer cleaner set that I came across.
The strange part is that just at 9,000 rpm it tips over lean. Mid range seems to be richer than before. I've autotuned it to 40% greater than before with no apparent control. Other observations:
Fuel pressure rock steady at 46psi through the RPM range.
Injector balance previous event 35 this event 50/50 with No change
Lower harness will reach to upper 2/3/4 and will idle with top injectors, doesn't like it but will idle telling me the injectors pass fuel.
Just seems as if upper injectors are not helping/coming in.

What I found out later tonight was it thought clutch was in all the time. When I did my cold start work around I cheated and put pin 59(N) and 60(clutch) to share a ground. Schematic seems to indicate this would work. But when in gear the relay releases the ground but the pins remained jumped. So for some reason when it goes to gear it thinks it's clutch in. ECM doesn't have resistance between two pins so not sure why it's not releasing Clutch condition. *Update was not 59/60 was 42 (starter switch) causing In. Once I disconnected from switch 59/60 work as thought. Will have to sort that out. Which may be worse if it doesn't know it's starting it may not go to cold start. **Update update. put diode to deny backfeed to 42. Must have been start relay doing something weird to backfeed. Now have all three conditions when appropriate. But clutch in fueling question remains, to know how many issues I've corrected.

So if it thinks I'm in 5th and the clutch in will it not fire upper injectors? I'm seeing fuel tables for N and gears but no fuel table for clutch in. I'm going to try cold start with it thinking clutch out and if it works hoping that takes care of my >9k lean fuel situation. I've got a go/no go decision to travel to Watkins Glen and Mid Ohio in about two weeks and don't want to drag a bum car across the country.



-- Edited by Positron on Thursday 28th of March 2013 05:26:38 AM



-- Edited by Positron on Thursday 28th of March 2013 06:17:56 AM



-- Edited by Positron on Thursday 28th of March 2013 06:53:36 AM

__________________
Turning money into smoke and noise since 2006


Veteran Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 38
Date:

Ok theory tested and confirmed, reverts to lower injectors either when not in gear or clutch IN. It thought it was clutch IN due to backfeed through coil on start button signal. When button normally open there is enough resistance through the relay coil to weird out the 42 pin which is expecting a 12v signal only when you start it. I would not have seen that coming.

I lowered bias values to 80% upper above like 2500 rpm to test. I could get hypothesis to repeat by by-passing diode and observing. If in gear and diode it'd fire the uppers. If previous condition it would switch to lowers only without missing a beat.

So clutch must be out to fire upper injectors. Lower injectors not enough to run E85 by themselves which also tells me they are running themselves 115% idc solo. Which means I should have plenty with both.

Oh well problem solved with .49 cent diode. Would not have thought to disconnect start button signal wire. Relay would work too but will put spare diode in my spares box.



__________________
Turning money into smoke and noise since 2006


Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 546
Date:

Found similar on one of the bikes
kept running lean above 8 psi so logged the injectors and found the secondarys were not active
combination of faulty gps , and clutch switch , fixed one and the problem persisted till i found the second,


__________________


Veteran Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 38
Date:

Maj750 wrote:

Found similar on one of the bikes
kept running lean above 8 psi so logged the injectors and found the secondarys were not active
combination of faulty gps , and clutch switch , fixed one and the problem persisted till i found the second,


 Thanks, I'm not seeing how to PM, can you PM me on how to log uppers. Looks like log box is logging what the expected value for the injectors are but I'm not seeing the split.



__________________
Turning money into smoke and noise since 2006


Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 546
Date:

AEM-AQ1 as a second logger, i want egt , ground speed, pre and post intercooler temps and pressures etc and backup the log box when it drops out

__________________


Veteran Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 38
Date:

Very good, thanks

__________________
Turning money into smoke and noise since 2006
Page 1 of 1  sorted by
 
Quick Reply

Please log in to post quick replies.

Tweet this page Post to Digg Post to Del.icio.us


Create your own FREE Forum
Report Abuse
Powered by ActiveBoard