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Post Info TOPIC: 91 GSXR conversion Gen 2. ECU toasted!!


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91 GSXR conversion Gen 2. ECU toasted!!


Hi Everyone

 

I'm working on installing a Gen2 ECU on my 91 GSXR 750. 

I'm looking for info on where the crank trigger should be for TDC 1-4?

Gen 1 TDC is 9 teeth (including the missing tooth) after the missing tooth window.

I know on Gen 1 motor the crank sensor is in the middle of the missing tooth area when the cam pin is inline with the sensor on comp stroke of #4. 

 

Judging by what John and others have done seem the crank and cam pin are more or less in the same positon on gen1 vs. gen2.  Can anyone verify this for me?

 

-Ryan

 

 



-- Edited by Yallgotboost on Monday 1st of October 2012 01:07:17 PM



-- Edited by Yallgotboost on Friday 19th of October 2012 03:46:36 AM



-- Edited by Yallgotboost on Monday 22nd of October 2012 01:51:06 PM



-- Edited by Yallgotboost on Monday 22nd of October 2012 01:51:19 PM



-- Edited by Yallgotboost on Monday 6th of May 2013 12:19:32 PM



-- Edited by Yallgotboost on Monday 19th of May 2014 04:15:35 PM

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RE: Gen 2 Cam Pin location vs missing tooth window


Also can some one measure the cam trigger pin size for me. Done a search with not much luck.

Thanks
-Ryan

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sounds like quite a conversion, i have an old 93 GSXR 1100 sitting under the house, you got me thinking now :)



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93 1100 waterpumper. Nice bike. I put a turbo on one of those some time ago. I don't think the guy that did it ever really got teh bugs worked out of it though.

Time to get up to speed with the architecture and dig into the crank vs. Cam pin location in the code I guess. This has come up multiple times.

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sportbikeryder wrote:

93 1100 waterpumper. Nice bike. I put a turbo on one of those some time ago. I don't think the guy that did it ever really got teh bugs worked out of it though.

Time to get up to speed with the architecture and dig into the crank vs. Cam pin location in the code I guess. This has come up multiple times.


 That would be a great help John.

Going off of what petrik posted in this thread http://ecuhacking.activeboard.com/t36890247/crank-and-cam-pickup/  it would seem the on a gen 2 the crank sensor would still be in the center of the missing tooth windown when the cam trigger is in the center of the cam pin.  So my guess is TDC should be 7 teeth after the 2 missing teeth. Seems as long as triling edge of the cam pin passes the cam sensor before the next tooth on the crank sensor everything should work fine.

That make senes as to why you need offset cam pins for gen 1 cams in gen 2 motor to re-center the pin into the bigger missing tooth area.

One question I have are the cam pins bigger on a gen 2 vs gen 1?



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Here is a screen shot of the the trigger wheel I plan to machine.

 

24-2-91-gsxr-trigger-wheel.png?i=334839010



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Do yourself a favor and get a 3 channel oscilloscope. You will be casing your tail otherwise.

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Already did.



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I had a question about ISC valve. If i dont run it will cause any kind of limp mode?

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No,
if you untic the isc box there is no fault given, my race bikes are without isc

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RE: 91 GSXR conversion Gen 2. Cam Pin location vs missing tooth window


Maj750 wrote:

No,
if you untic the isc box there is no fault given, my race bikes are without isc


 No problems with mine either.



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ok thanks guys.

 

I got the crank trigger finished last night and marked where I need to machine off the 2 teeth. Once I have the trigger adjusted and cam pin in proper location to get timming corect I will most likely add 2 more screws to lock the crank trigger in place.  As for the cam pin location. I'm making an aluminum split collar to fit on the cam shaft with a cam pin installed in it. I'll space the cam sensor up this way I can rotate it on the cam to get proper location. Then ill remove the cam indicate the pin pull off the collar and machine the cam for the pin. 

 

index.php?callback=image&pid=425&width=620&height=540&mode=

index.php?callback=image&pid=424&width=620&height=540&mode=



-- Edited by Yallgotboost on Monday 1st of October 2012 06:04:11 PM



-- Edited by Yallgotboost on Monday 1st of October 2012 06:06:20 PM

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522925_10151258291669083_1310092525_n.jpg

Here is the temp adjustable cam trigger pin. When it goes on the bike I have some aluminum 4-40 screws so the screws dont trigger the sensor.



-- Edited by Yallgotboost on Friday 5th of October 2012 01:34:12 PM

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Looking good I'm doing the same to my 1127 Gixxer.

amazing you're thinking the same way as me with the components Crank triggers etc, I like your cam sensor might copy that.

how did you deal with the coolant sensor I've hooked up to oil temp in the sump and going to fit a diode to make the ohms reading the same.

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You could just put a resistor in the sensor connection to fool the ECU. Alternatively, you could install a cylinder head temp sensor if you wanted. The coolant temperature sensor does need to have a signal in order for the engine to run (at least run worth a crap).

In the future, perhaps we will have a disable option for the coolant temp as with the air temp sensor.


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Hagarr wrote:

Looking good I'm doing the same to my 1127 Gixxer.

amazing you're thinking the same way as me with the components Crank triggers etc, I like your cam sensor might copy that.

how did you deal with the coolant sensor I've hooked up to oil temp in the sump and going to fit a diode to make the ohms reading the same.


Thanks Hagarr.  The temp adjustable pin should help alot with everything in the right place to dril the permanet one. I had planed to just put the water temp on the head or valve cover somehwere for now just so it will get some heat in it as the motor heats up.

I had thought of oil temp sensor as well but these oil cooled motors oil temps can get so high. I dont know how much the Gen 2 ecu leans or richens based on the water temp sensor signal. Anyone have any input on that?



-- Edited by Yallgotboost on Monday 8th of October 2012 04:00:09 AM

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My thinking was even if the Oil temp sender was wrong in terms of Output signal the manual gives you what the coolant  temp operates at (Ohms) over a temperature range so I figured with a bit of trickery pokery and measuring of the oil temp and either an adjustable pod or a set diode you should be able to adjust the reading to suit what should be coming out of the coolant temp sensor, PHEW hope you get that!

 

Yallgotboost wrote:


Hagarr wrote:

Looking good I'm doing the same to my 1127 Gixxer.

amazing you're thinking the same way as me with the components Crank triggers etc, I like your cam sensor might copy that.

how did you deal with the coolant sensor I've hooked up to oil temp in the sump and going to fit a diode to make the ohms reading the same.


Thanks Hagarr.  The temp adjustable pin should help alot with everything in the right place to dril the permanet one. I had planed to just put the water temp on the head or valve cover somehwere for now just so it will get some heat in it as the motor heats up.

I had thought of oil temp sensor as well but these oil cooled motors oil temps can get so high. I dont know how much the Gen 2 ecu leans or richens based on the water temp sensor signal. Anyone have any input on that?



-- Edited by Yallgotboost on Monday 8th of October 2012 04:00:09 AM


 



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Not sure on the current engine temp response, but i am fairly sure some earlier efi bikes used a timing /temp table more than a injector compensation
you could test response with a variable pot on the temp sender wire and test with an a/f meter and timing light


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Maj750 wrote:

Not sure on the current engine temp response, but i am fairly sure some earlier efi bikes used a timing /temp table more than a injector compensation
you could test response with a variable pot on the temp sender wire and test with an a/f meter and timing light


 I like this idea! 



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91 GSXR conversion Gen 2. Cam Pin location vs missing tooth window (Help no spark)


So ive messed with the bike a bit and have the signals looking right. I still have no spark though. I have 12v to the coils. I dont have a dash or the interface yet for ECU Editor so I cant see the codes. TOS is in the right postion. Would the secondary injectors being unplaged cause no spark or GPS? The signals look good to me.

index.php?callback=image&pid=429&width=1000&height=800&mode=

index.php?callback=image&pid=428&width=1000&height=800&mode=

index.php?callback=image&pid=428&width=1000&height=800&mode=



-- Edited by Yallgotboost on Friday 19th of October 2012 03:49:51 AM

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You are really going to be hard pressed to get this working without an interface to look at the response of the sensors and to see where the codes may be coming in. You don;t need to have a dash at all. The connection to teh ECU is pretty much required with a conversion as you will likely have quite a few issues to work out. Most will be easy once you see where the error is.

Where are you located Yall?

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Yeah plan to get one next week. I'm in PA John.

 

-Ryan



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   Hi Yallgoboost,    Being locked ot from spark is usually pretty simple if you have power at the coils,  Do you know if the engine is turning fast enough?  300 rpm is the magic number I have found,  do you have an ignition switch installed or have you bypassed it some way?  There is a resistor in the the key switch that must be in the system for it to spark,  When you power things up does the fuel pump relay cycle on then a few seconds later cycle off?  Then when you crank the engine does it cycle back on?  Sre you using a good battery to power this machine up?

  Hope this gives you some ideas



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Red Racer 1 wrote:

   Hi Yallgoboost,    Being locked ot from spark is usually pretty simple if you have power at the coils,  Do you know if the engine is turning fast enough?  300 rpm is the magic number I have found,  do you have an ignition switch installed or have you bypassed it some way?  There is a resistor in the the key switch that must be in the system for it to spark,  When you power things up does the fuel pump relay cycle on then a few seconds later cycle off?  Then when you crank the engine does it cycle back on?  Sre you using a good battery to power this machine up?

  Hope this gives you some ideas


I'm using 08 hayabusa handel bar switches. I have not checked the fuel pump cycle yet as I was manily working to get the cam pin and crank trigger in the right place. I'll do that tonight. Battery is good and fully charged.

 

"There is a resistor in the key switch that must be in system" I didnt think there was on US bikes. I wired in my 91's ignition switch maybe this is the problem. Where dose this resistor wire in and what size?



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If conversion is rock solid i would double check the immo as Red says.

Are you using the US or EU/AU ecu and bin?
Resistor are only working for US bin, and transponder for EU on gen2 also right?

 

Edit: Dont know if anyone has done it for gen2 yet but disable immo in file and ecu dont care about resistor or transponder.

Immo should kill the fuelpump IF its controlled by the ecu.



-- Edited by Twice on Friday 19th of October 2012 07:18:26 PM

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100ohm 1/2watt 5% resistor did the trick on the g/b wire.

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  There you go,   Keep us updated with your progress!



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Wait until you get your ECU interface and you don't need to use a resistor for the ignition. You can flash a .bin file that is "gen" rather than US or EU and it will remove the requirement for the resistor.

I am in PA as well. Western PA.

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John Im out east in bucks county PA. I plan to flash the ecu soon just wanted to try and set the timing this weekend.
Do you ever run your bike at atco or englishtown?

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RE: 91 GSXR conversion Gen 2. Cam Pin location vs missing tooth window


Goin by the map in EE. When the bikes in neutral at 800 or less rpm I should have 0 advance is that right or dose cranking have a fixed advance?

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I'm not sure you'll find a great deal of info relating to how exactly teh maps coincide with actual values (timing, fueling, temperatures, etc). Each of these is a derived value calculated by taking the ecu values and figuring out the constants that are used to get them into engineering values. Alot of this was done very early on and has been assumed to be correct, although som could very well be off a bit.

Once you get an interface, I would recommend setting up the tables with pretty much fixed values so you know what to look for. Once the interface is connected, it will display the faults and also what the expected timing and fueling are.



-- Edited by sportbikeryder on Tuesday 23rd of October 2012 12:58:01 PM

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I haven't read the whole of this post so someone may have already answered it but the falling edge of the tooth after the gap is 105 degrees before TDC, if that helps....

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Hi.
I'll also plan to install a system of injection GSXR 1000 k8 in my GSXR 1127 (1340) turbo. Very interesting topic!

You may have to make a trigger on the crankshaft and pin on camshaft, the same as you?



-- Edited by Pasis on Wednesday 9th of January 2013 11:06:36 PM

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It's been awhile since I have posted. Got supre busy with work and moving started back working on my bike again.
Chipwizard wrote:

I haven't read the whole of this post so someone may have already answered it but the falling edge of the tooth after the gap is 105 degrees before TDC, if that helps....


 

 

        The falling edge of the crabk tooth after the gap?  Dose anyone know the timming  rising and falling edges of the cam trigger pin?

 



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Finally have a log box on the way thanks to my awesome lady. Finally be able to get this thing running. Should have the box in a few weeks she said post from Australia can never be fast enough!

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Finally got my Log box!! hope to hook it up with weekend!

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ok good to hear it arrived to you. Let us know how you go!



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Over the weekend I got the Log box installed and Flashed the ECU. Everything worked great so far. Hope to check the ignition timing tonight to see if the cam pin and crank wheel are all positioned right. All thats left now is to drill the cam for the cam pin once the right position is found and to hook up the fuel line. Shouldn't be long now!!

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So im trying to get the cam and crank triggers in the right spot. I have the crank trigger 8 teeth before the gap on TDC #1-4 and I have the cam pin at 222 deg (42 deg ABDC) on compression stroke. On the engine data is says while cranking I should be at 8.3 deg but the timing light is showing I'm at 30 deg. I haven't put the scope on it yet but I'm guessing I need to move the cam sensor pin clamp back a few degree. Thoughts?

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Also on TDC of 1-4 should the crank sensor be in the rising edge middle or falling edge?

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TDC is not necesarily going to coincide with a tooth signal , more likely its going to be x deg before tdc as the ecu cannot predict before events it needs a signal then reacts

Johns conversion thread lists the btdc timing of the cam pins for busa and gsxr ecus set to suit the ecu your using , then i would check the timing running at operating temp as there will be minimal background compensations happening

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Thanks Maj750 I looked through Johns thread and set it to 42 ABDC which is what the 08 busa calls for. Guess ill just have to fire it up and see where were at.

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Yallgotboost,

nice work you have done there! Drop me an email at psychegr at gmail.com
I own a 750 gixxer that i will convert to injection and maybe you can send me the solidworks files of the crank and cam trigger or sell the triggers.

Regards

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psyche wrote:

Yallgotboost,

nice work you have done there! Drop me an email at psychegr at gmail.com
I own a 750 gixxer that i will convert to injection and maybe you can send me the solidworks files of the crank and cam trigger or sell the triggers.

Regards


 I have the File for the outer half of the crank trigger. The rest I just machined from some hand drawing and my head. The cam sensor theres no need for the test clamp setup..  Just buy a hayabusa pin and put it at 42 abdc.



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Yallotboost,

thanx for the info. I read the complete thread once more. If you have any problems with the coolant temp sensor, because the bike is oilcooled, i suggest that you just connect the coolant temp sensor in the harness so that the bike starts. After you manage to start the bike, you can find an oil temp sensor that outputs 0-5V. You can put that one on the engine and then fix the Voltage to Temp table of the ecu to compensate with that sensor. That is the easy part. The hard is to start the bike, finding the correct spots of the crank and cam triggers. Sadly i havent done the conversion on my bike, besides the fact that i have all the parts, so i am not able to help you more with the conversion, but anything related to ecu and electrical i will be able to help you.
That flooding slingshot carbs drive me mad some times!!! ;)

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I've never actually checked my timing to see where it actually is. I have the .bin "programmed" to 30degrees for timing at the WOT throttle and higher RPM as displayed in ECU Editor. That's pretty much it for timing. Was good enough to run as much boost as i was comfortable with (and then some on a few occasions) on C16 with no charge cooling.

Liquid to air Charge cooler is just about ready for the Dyno now. If all goes well, Dyno this weekend and racing the following weekend.

John

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Hey John

I have no real good way of checking timing while its running would be one hell of an oily mess... Just gonna get it fired up and see how it goes. What track are you going to?



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Hopefully I will be at Maryland International Raceway in Mechanicsville, MD for the MIROCK superbike series race.

I thought you were testing it while running since you mentioned the timing light reading 30 degrees, but I see you meant while cranking.

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Is there a way to read the active FI/ DTC error codes with woolich software or do I need to use ecu editor?

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this has not been implemented yet, it is on the to do list ;)



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