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Post Info TOPIC: Very simple questions, could use some help getting started


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Very simple questions, could use some help getting started


I am just getting started.  I was trying to do a search on part numbers.    I picked up some used boxes.  They are marked 32920-24FD0 and 32920-24FK0.   The K0 is a little smaller than the D0 but the connectors appear to be the same.  

Are the two boxes interchangeable?  

Thanks for any help. 

 



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32920-24FD0 is from a 2001 busa and is not reflashable
32920-24FK0 is from us 02-07 and is reflashable



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Thank you very much. Can the D0 be used on the 02-07 bikes if reprogramming is not needed? Curious if the pinout is the same for the two parts.

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From my understanding the D0 is a 16 bit version and the 02-07 ecu's are 32 bit and they can be flashed. You can get the D0 to work on the 02-07 bikes but you have to change some things around. Most people switch from 16 bit to 32 due to being able to program the 32 bit version. Here a link to 16 to 32 bit conversion.

 

http://www.hayabusa.org/forum/maintenance-do-yourself/166099-16-bit-ecu-32-bit-conversion-how.html



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Thanks.  This is some real good info.  Not sure why I could not find it with the search.      

I am attempting to put together some sort of test jig to get started.

It appears my used cluster is bad.    Inside the cluster,  it appears there are two microcontrollers.   The part from NEC appears to run the LEDs and LCDs.  There is a part made by Nippon Stiki TB9268F that appears to run all the steppers.     It looks like the NEC part comes out of reset, reads a little 8-pin PROM, turns on all of the LED and LCD segments, then waits for the NS part to test the steppers.   The steppers never move and the cluster just sits with everything glowing.   

The clock on the NS part appears to be correct.  I thought it would be a fracture but I can't seem to find it.   Heating the NS part will cause it to initialize the steppers, then the cluster will finish booting up and it all appears to work.  After the part cools, the gauges no longer work.  

There appears to be no data sheets on this part.   Has anyone had a similar problem with these clusters.  Is there a schematic for it somewhere?  

Digging into this cluster a little deeper, it appears that pins 39,43,44,45,46 & 47 are used to control the NS part.  The NS part appears to be a stepper driver.    47 appears to be a serial bus.  46, maybe a clock for each of the 4 steppers.  45 maybe a start or select.    

I suspect pin 43 is a feedback signal, like done to the NEC part.   As I toggle this pin, the motors all run through the self test and then zero out.  Then the gauges move to their normal positions and the cluster comes up with the LCDs showing the normal data.     

I tested all of these signals from pin to pin of the two ICs and checked for short to adjacent pins.  This all seems normal.

Pin 48 appears to just be a test point and outputs 32.768KHz.  Hummmmm  where have I seen this number before...     If I jumper from pin 48 to pin 43, the cluster all appears to work normally.   Would really like to see a data sheet for that NS part.   

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 



-- Edited by bigtoe on Monday 4th of November 2013 01:06:42 AM

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I have my waveform generators hooked up and am getting ignition coil faults.  I don't have anything connected.   I tried just to use a resistive load from about 80 down to 10 ohms but it still faults out.   Does the box need the back EMF or is it looking for some di/dt value?   

I have an old throttle body hooked up for now.  Curious if these drivers use the same detection as the ignition coils? 

On the plus side, the tach and speedometer are working after I added that little jumper in the cluster. 



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You can try hooking the Ignition outputs to the coil of a relay to get the fault out of the way.



-- Edited by sportbikeryder on Friday 8th of November 2013 12:08:14 AM

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Looks like it wants the back EMF.   I like your relay coil idea if it works. 

I measured a coil from a bike.  They are about 1 ohm and 3.4mH.  I measure a on time of about 1.3 mS @ 11,000 RPM.    

11,000 or 183 RPS or 5.4mS per/turn.  Seems to turn on every other rotation, so 10.8 mS.  12% duty.  At 1 ohm, it looks like about 17 Watts.  

Would like to have this jig run cold.   I tried some smaller cores but am guessing the back EMF is the key.  I wound a few 50mH 5 ohm pot cores and this seemed to work fine at 11,000 but they still run pretty hot.  

Can you run your relay coils up to 11,000 without a fault?   Do you have a way to measure what they are?

 

 

 

 



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Small coils were first attempt.   Looking at dwell times, looked like it could be done with one core.   I wound a single large pot-core to simulate all four ignition coils.   I plan to use separate drivers to short the non active coils (simulate a shorted plug).      

 I ran the box with all four drivers connected to it at max RPM for 2 hours with no faults.   It's a start anyway. 



-- Edited by bigtoe on Thursday 7th of November 2013 02:25:35 AM

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Made a coil form out of PEEK tonight and wound up the final coil.  This Belden magnet wire has a real high temperature #8052.   Lacquer has been applied to the winding then to the outside tape.  There are 5 separate windings.  One for each coil and a fifth that will be used to simulate a faulted plug.   Once its mounted into the pot core, the entire assembly will be placed into a separate housing and potted. 



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Wires attached and machined a housing for it.  Pot it up next.  Will post a schematic showing how this thing is going to work.     Anyone know if the box looks for back EMF from the injectors?  If so, any idea on voltage?



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Schematic showing the basic ignition load.  



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Finished heat curing the transformer.   Works well.



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What is it that you are trying to do bigtoe?

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I want to get in on the fun.

My plan is to make a way to simulate a bike for starts. I looked on youtube and it looked like a lot of people were making their own setups:

www.youtube.com/watch
www.youtube.com/watch
www.youtube.com/watch



I downloaded the last open sourced version of the editor and got that to build. Looked into the tools for the box but didn't see any prices. Anyone using GCC for this? If so, any help in this area would be great.

I pulled the injectors and got some new faults. Started out with a resistive load and sure enough, this was enough to clear the fault. Once more, I increased the resistance to 1K and it still worked. Would rather go this way if possible.

I am doing all my initial checks with that old box. Anyone know if the newer boxes require back EMF on the injectors like the ignition?



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Most of the stock ecu's use the flyback as a fault detection intentionally. The errors can be turned off if the area is known in the code.

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I found this last night on youtube, pretty cool setup

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k15Lrr_3Wqk



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sportbikeryder wrote:

Most of the stock ecu's use the flyback as a fault detection intentionally.


 

From testing, I know that the original box does not use it for the injectors.  I would be interested in knowing if the 02 - 07 requires it or if they will work with a resistive load as well.  

The test setups are similar to what I want to make.   I am amazed at how much work has been done.   There is a lot to take in.  Before I look at the software, I want to setup a way to model the bike.

My first attempt just to get the thing working, I was able to run a single wire to each trigger input and get it to work.    This was with the old box.   I'm not sure if the newer box needs a true differential drive or not.     I plan to make a duel output driver.  You can have VR or hall type for each output.   

Would be curious to know if the boxes that use VR inputs detect the amplitude as well or can you just drive them with a 0-5 5-0 type output.  

 

 



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jkwool wrote:

I found this last night on youtube, pretty cool setup

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k15Lrr_3Wqk


 

I happen to know the guy who currently has that one....biggrinsmile



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sportbikeryder wrote:
jkwool wrote:

I found this last night on youtube, pretty cool setup

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k15Lrr_3Wqk


 

I happen to know the guy who currently has that one....biggrinsmile


 Did you get your hands on it John? :)



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jkwool wrote:
sportbikeryder wrote:
jkwool wrote:

I found this last night on youtube, pretty cool setup

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k15Lrr_3Wqk


 

I happen to know the guy who currently has that one....biggrinsmile


 Did you get your hands on it John? :)


 I've had it for quite some time. Tony Findley made it and had no real use for it as he didn't really get into ECU flashing like he originally intended.



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Ok cool, it looks like quite a piece of kit :)



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Which box are you using with it?

I think I have most of the I/O sorted out now and made up the waveforms to simulate the various tone wheels.

You can see the new load coil off to the lower right.  



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Looks good bigtoe.

What type of signal generator are you using?

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sportbikeryder wrote:

Looks good bigtoe.

What type of signal generator are you using?


 It's all custom made.  There is one board that plugs into a desktop PC that is used to create all of the signals for the box.  This board will also measure everything from the box.   There is an external board that will have all of the signal conditioning, loads and power electronics.  This will all fit into a separate box that will also contain a power supply to run it.  

The PC will then run custom software that will model the bike.  I plan to stay with Windows.  All of the time critical stuff is done in hardware.   

I did notice that the instrument cluster looses track of the stepper locations.  I suspected this was the issue and believe it works just as I described.   I did call the person I bought it from in hopes they would find me a working one to replace it or at least refund money I paid for it.  For now, it will have to do.  As long as I don't slew the instruments too fast, it seems alright.   I did look to see if I could find a slower clock to tickle that feedback but no luck.  

 

 



-- Edited by bigtoe on Thursday 14th of November 2013 02:04:53 AM

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Trying to find a source for the female pins used to connect to the box. Does anyone have a part number and distributor?



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www.ebay.com/itm/MoTeC-ECU-Connector-Kit-M800-M600-M400-M84-PDM-E888-Haltech-Hayabusa-99-07-/221298251509

they should be able to sell you just pins

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motorsportwiringsupply.com/amp-super-seal-1.0/



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Amp super seal is what I was looking for. Getting an order together to build my setup. I like the load boxes people have and am thinking I may do something similar for some sensors where you can use manual or computer control.

For the gear position, does the firmware just look at the two pins and if its not in neutral, it looks for the gear? Does it need a brake before make type contact? Is the gear only used for timing?

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The gearing is used for timing as well as fuel modifications. The Ram air mapping for example uses RPM and gear to calculate the vehicle speed and then uses this to make modifications.

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sportbikeryder wrote:

The Ram air mapping for example uses RPM and gear to calculate the vehicle speed and then uses this to make modifications.


 

I have not yet sorted out all of the harness.  Doesn't the output shaft sensor go to the box an any of the models or is it only used for the gauge cluster?

 

Saw a good description of the gear position switch.  When they add the kill, are they adding the 220 ohm in series or parallel?  *** Just looked at a harness, they use a 41.2K to the negative side.  Others must have used a 220 in series with the pink sense wire.  Looks like a lot of confusion and wrong info when I searched. 

I'm impressed for the people that re-engineered this part of the project. 

Looking at the Boost by Smith harness, there is no diode across the shift solenoid output.    I would think it would limit the current enough not to damage the box.   Not sure the horn button will like the high voltage across its contacts or if the transient ever causes other issues. 

If a diode were added, obviously the field will decay much slower.  Voltage on the one side of the 41.2K is going to be clamped just above what ever the battery voltage is.   Rather than acting as a pull down, its now pulling up.   Does this cause a problem with the box thinking the bike is in the wrong gear while the field decays?  

-- Edited by bigtoe on Wednesday 20th of November 2013 02:48:28 AM



-- Edited by bigtoe on Thursday 21st of November 2013 01:04:33 AM

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I started making a box that will hold the simulator.  It will be similar to your setup with various switches and pots to adjust things manually when not being ran from the computer.   The AC line cord plugs into the rear.  You can see the filter.   The white box is a 6A power supply that will be inside.  Top cover slides out for easy access. 



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Mounted all the parts into the front panel.   While this thing will run from a PC, the pots can be used to manually adjust if desired.  The LEDs are for the injectors, ignition, fuel pump and air flapper.  The banana jacks on the right are just test points.    Also shown is back side of box with the AC plug and line switch.  The rubber grommet is where the harness will come through for the box and cluster.   The other long slot is where the PC harness will enter.   I plan to make up a clamp for a strain relief.    

 

 

 

 



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Looks great, nice clean job, dont spose you would be interested in building me one? if you are, please contact me on the contact us page on our web site http://www.woolichracing.com/ContactUs.aspx



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There's a lot of work to be done before my setup can be useful.

The load boxes shown in the videos (along with a real bike) may be good enough for what you need to do.

Are you really looking for a hardware in the loop simulator that can run a model of a bike? If so, there are companies you could purchase a system from pretty much turn key. D-Space, ADI, etc. The nice thing about going with something less custom is you should end up with a much nicer tool and support.

Have a look:

www.dspace.com/en/inc/home/applicationfields/automotive/controldesign.cfm

www.adi.com/technology/technical-library/real-time-pilot-in-the-loop-and-hardware-in-the-loop-simulation-at-gulfstream/




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I made up a perforated cover for the power supply and also mounted the ignition coil.   Because I don't have any mechanical loads like the relays, or the fuel injectors, this system will be silent.   The speaker will be used to pump out some engine sounds. 

To the right was my gear position switch I made up to try.  Just a rotary with a bunch of pots.   For the simulator, I hope to do this with a DAC to to make it more flexible.  

 



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I bought one of the Boost by Smith programmers and plan to use it with the simulator.

The three connectors to the right are for running a loop-back test on the control board. 

 



 



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I am starting to work through all the analog sensors. Any idea what resolution the ADC is in the box and what they have for filters?

Does anyone know how the data gets from the cluster down to the box? For example, the fuel level analog signal goes to the cluster. There is a fault code C92 if this sensor is out of range. But there is a comment that the AFR "compensation ration fixed to normal condition'. Is there some sort of limp home mode?





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Looking good, the ADC are 10 bit resolution not sure about the filters have not looked into it.

There is a USART serial connection from the ECU to the Gauge Cluster, i am assuming its 2 way for the communications to get from the cluster back to the ECU.



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Thanks. I may cut apart the 16-bit box I have to check the filters. I am only using it for testing anyway. I did install the cable to connect that Boost by Smith box up. Went to run the program and it hangs. I had downloaded the code from bit bucket for the ECU editor 2.5.5.111 (older than the EXE) and rebuilt it in debug mode. Of course, this version works fine. So on the plus side, it talks to my 16 bit box. On the down side, it looks like there me be a bug in the code.

Do the latest versions of this ECU software have a display for all the analog sensors? I would like to know what the box is seeing.

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Does anyone know how the data gets from the cluster down to the box?

 

It doesn't fault code C92 is generated in the gauge cluster , the fuel gauge is directly wired to the gauge , the ecu never looks at it .

It only displays C92 because it senses the ecu is in dealer mode .

 

For example, the fuel level analog signal goes to the cluster. There is a fault code C92 if this sensor is out of range.

 

 



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Thanks. I am guessing that note in the Haynes manual next to the error code it attempting to say that the AFR is not affected by low fuel. Do you know if there are any signals that the cluster sends to the box that will change how the box controls the engine?

After building the debug version of the ecueditor, when I attempt to run it normally, it hangs. If I run it inside the debugger, it seems to work fine. Was hoping that the tools were more stable. If anyone has run into this and has a fix please post.


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The problem with the software is how they hook to the timers to do the splash screen. I just comment out the splash and the program appears to run fine outside the debugger.


' LoginForm.Show() -- Possible bug when using timer locks PC


Now this is why we have open source! Back to getting my box built....

Crap...  Looks like ecueditor will lockup in other parts of the program.  Again, it looks like calls to the timer.   Strange as I have not had compatibility problems with this PC before.   Again, when running in the debugger, these parts of the program (fuel maps) seem to work fine. 

I am also seeing another strange problem.  For some reason, when I connect to the box with the ecueditor, the coolant temperature needle pegs.  The ecueditor appears to report the correct value.   If I change the sensors input, the numbers in ecueditor track it, but the needle stays maxed out.  

 

 



-- Edited by bigtoe on Wednesday 18th of December 2013 12:18:57 AM

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Do you know if there are any signals that the cluster sends to the box that will change how the box controls the engine?

The cluster sends no signals to the ecu.....


I am also seeing another strange problem. For some reason, when I connect to the box with the ecueditor, the coolant temperature needle pegs. The ecueditor appears to report the correct value. If I change the sensors input, the numbers in ecueditor track it, but the needle stays maxed out.


This is normal on the gen1 bikes . the gauge was made to read full hot when no data is received from the ecu .


The reason ( In my opinion ) no data is received by the gauge cluster is because the impedance in the reflash box is low and not enough signal is left over on the gauge data wire to drive the gauges .


You can disconnect the gauge data wire from the dash and get the same result> coolant temperature needle pegs

 

 

 

 

 



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Thank you a very much. I'll look into the bus loading problem. Maybe there is a simple fix.

Too bad about the lack of data from the cluster. If I understand it, there is no way for the ECU to read the shaft speed (at least with the stock design).  

I did machine up my strain relief for the ribbon cables.  The stock harness still covers the floor but I'm getting closer to taking the wire cutters to it....



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If I understand it, there is no way for the ECU to read the shaft speed (at least with the stock design).

 

If you mean countershaft as in motorcycle road speed no .

 

The ecu looks at gear position and engine rpm and uses a table to extrapolate road speed .

 

 

 



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Do they only use the cranks speed / gear position for the road speed governor?     If so, I wonder why they needed gear position for all six gears.

The box appears to have several unused pins.   Has anyone looked to see if any of these are unused I/O and if so, what type? 



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Looking at the coolant input, when the temperature exceeds 330F, the ecueditor flags an error that the temperature was too high and it stops running. I don't understand what this 'feature' is for. For us old school people, a feature that would be nice would be to select the units.


I would be interested in understanding why the intake air temp is not displayed but TPS is. Is the air temp not sent out the serial port? Put another way, if the sole purpose of sending data out the serial link is so the cluster can display it, what does the cluster care about throttle plate angle.

Looking at the TPS input, as the voltage gets lower, the position goes negative. Then at -28% it flips to 100%. Does the box attempt to dump full fuel into the engine when the sensor is disconnected?

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Do they only use the cranks speed / gear position for the road speed governor?  

Yes

 If so, I wonder why they needed gear position for all six gears?

That is simple the busa is a ram air bike . their is a ram air table that gives the ecu calculated speed for all gear positions and road speeds .

their are also separate ignition tables for deferent goops of gears .

 

I would be interested in understanding why the intake air temp is not displayed but TPS is. Is the air temp not sent out the serial port? Put another way, if the sole purpose of sending data out the serial link is so the cluster can display it, what does the cluster care about throttle plate angle. 

their is a dropdown menu at the bottom of the engine data screen in ecu editor you will fined most if not all sensor outputs listed their

I believe all sensor outputs come out of the ecu .

 

Have you looked at the romraider definition for the gen1 hayabusa it think you will fined it VERY interesting and it will explain a lot.

Romraider shows all the tables in the ecu code.

http://ecuhacking.activeboard.com/t16546243/32bit-map-files-02-07/

 



-- Edited by Zx10Bud on Wednesday 18th of December 2013 05:18:56 PM

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Thanks again for all the help. I'll be sure and have a read.

I see a pull down box on the engine data screen, but it is grayed out. Does it make a difference that I am testing with a 16-bit box or maybe that version 2.5.5.111 is too old to support this feature?






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