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Post Info TOPIC: Info on gen2 ignition maps


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Info on gen2 ignition maps


The basic ignition map system has been renewed with gen2 busa ecu. (This may have been present already in gixxers, but have not looked at the code of those.)

The structure of ignition map setting is somewhat following:
- Clutch maps for inner and outer banks
- Group1 ignition map for gear 1 to 5
- Group2 ignition map not used
- Group3 ignition map for gear 6
- Warm up ignition map (to be tested)
- Various compensation maps for ignition
Additionally each map has 6 different variations: Mode (A,B,C) x (MS0 and MS1)

To put all this in perspective there is about 100 possible ignition base maps and the additional compensation maps to be tuned if someone really wants to utilize the full capability of the ecu. Anyhow as stock there is no or only little variation between the various maps so even Suzuki did not went to that extreme of tweaking everything out of the ignition.

From tuning perspective I think that only feasible way is to unify all ignition maps and concentrate on tuning MS0 and MS1 maps like its done with gen1 ECUeditor - or ?



-- Edited by PetriK on Monday 13th of April 2009 03:33:26 PM

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PetriK,
I think unifying the maps would be the way to go, at least as a start. Very few people will ever be at a level where they will get into many different maps.


That being said, is there any way to unify all maps with the exception of map for first gear? I see you have "Group1 ignition map for gear 1 to 5" does that mean 5 maps or one map for 1-5?

John

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Please allow me to understand why would you like to retain the gear 1 ign map so that I can understand if it can be easily implemented. Initially still may be all or nothing just for simplicity.

The group is just one dimension more they have added. The maps are gear maps, but then grouped by various factors. E.g.

Cylinder 1
Gear=1
Group=1
MS=0
Mode=A

Cylinder 1
Gear=2
Group=1
MS=0
Mode=A

...

Cylinder 1
Gear=6
Group=3
MS=0
Mode=A


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Some of the Aussie drag racers on std wheelbase bikes with more than std hp are pulling ign timing out in 1st to better control the launch
But in general i think a unified map simplifies things a lot

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I looked at the ignition map select and I would describe it somewhat differently. While gear position does come into play I would not say there is a map for each gear.

There are 5 "groups". Group 0 maps are selected by Neutral or Clutch In. Group 1,2, and 3 are selected by gear position from a group to gear assignment table like the older bikes. That table is set up as

Gear_ 1 2 3 4 5 6
Group 1 1 1 1 1 5

As PetriK stated above it appears group 2 is not assigned. So to answer a question above if you wanted a first gear only map you could set it up as...(assuming group 2 maps are identical to group 1 maps)

Gear_ 1 2 3 4 5 6
Group 1 2 2 2 2 5

Then you could custom map group 1 for launching

Inside each of the first 4 Groups are four cylinder sub groups. Each cylinder sub group is made up of 6 mode maps. The modes for each cylinder sub group are...

Mode A MS0
Mode B MS0
Mode C MS0
Mode A MS1
Mode B MS1
Mode C MS1

The Group 0 Neutral maps are set up the same way as Group 1-3 but the actual mode maps assigned to cylinder 1 are assigned to cylinder 4 and also cylinder 2 uses the same maps as cylinder 3 so they are in effect banked inner and outer like the Gen 1.

This is pretty straight forward so far confuse and I hesitate to bring up this next part but it could be used as a map unification tool. There is a mode vs gear position selection matrix.

This matrix allows you change which Mode map you use by gear position. When in mode A you could force the ECU to use Mode A maps for 5th and 6th but use Mode B maps for 1-4th. Why you would want to do that I don't know, but you could.

Unification.

First there is a map switch that makes the ECU use cylinder 1 of all the groups for all four cylinders. Then you could modify the gear/group assignment use group 3 for all gears 1-6th. Then modify the matrix so that mode A B C all use mode A. This would leave you just 4 maps to adjust;

Neutral, Cylinder 1, Mode A MS0
Neutral, Cylinder 1, Mode A MS1

Group 3, Cylinder 1, Mode A MS0
Group 3, Cylinder 1, Mode A MS1

Or you could set it up with unified mode maps for 2nd-6th but set up 3 custom A, B, C 1st gear launch maps. Provided of course you can unify other mode items like fuel etc.

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Good info RR. smile

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without seeing what actual values(degrees that suzuki has implemented in their tune),and having tested a flashed ecu,we keep experincing head gasket (failures) due to extreme boost pressures without pulling timing,no matter how much fuel you put to it.our test bike and rider seems to be able to handle the power in the lower gears without having to reduce power to keep the frt end down,but in turn we seem to see failures on the big end of the track.for the advanced tuners it would be nice to see grouping,gears 1,2 3,4 5,6 ign maps.simplified maps are easy to use and are more forgiving if there is not a full understanding of mapping per gear.on our turbo bikes as speed increases so does the load,so there is a need for different timing values as load increases.......but thats my 2 cents.. and i am sure that it will be easier to write the software with just 1 common map.

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The current ECUeditor ignition mapping has two maps to tune with:

- Normal map
- MS map

Of course the amount of maps can be increased.

The current thinking I have is that A/B/C is not really something to play with when tuning ignition. At the end that is more useful as a secondary throttle plate (STP) control which effecitvely can developed into a setting that helps in launching ?

In current thinking for adding more tuneability to ignition - there is two options on top of the normal vs ms map. Either add more maps to be tuned or just add an advanced setting that has gear specific ignition advance bias. E.g set 6th gear for -2degrees - but both adds confusion to the user and do not really address the turbo issue.

I have a vague recall that in previous gen1 ecu the map sensor and engine coolant temperature information was used to determine what ignition advance the engine should be running. At a bit longer term I would be very tempted to look into that direction rather than having the user to decide what ignition map to tune.

The experience from dyno tells that its very seldom that we look into other ignition variables than just the basic map. On a standard rear wheel dyno (not an engine dyno) the variance is so small and testing engines to the limit takes so much time that usually its just +-2degrees testing and if improves then we may add +4 (or -4) to see where we are powerwise.

For boost applications the advice now is very biased towards e85 which is fairly well available over here on capitol area. Way cooler burning temps and very high (105) octane rating means that knocking or pinging is not the issue. After resolving the fuel capacity issues (injectors, fuelpumps) its more about when does the head gasket failure happen because of added boost (rather than because of peak cylinder pressures btdc due to incorrectly set ignition). If you turbo guys have any possibility to use e85, you will not be disappointed.



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E85 would be nice but its not readily available everywhere,
for the most part turbo will be safest with retard relative to boost, and as the ecu is not boost sensitive and as most controllers work on a gear based system raising boost in each gear, then gear based ign would be the easiest way to address this ..




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